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  #1  
Old 04-01-2012, 01:49 PM
Poita (Peter)
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Astrotrac for AP? Any users care to chime in?

This thread came about as an offshoot to another discussion, so I thought I'd better clean it up and start a dedicated thread.

Are there any Astrotrac users out there that would care to share their experiences, pros, cons, hints and tips?

I'm becoming more enamoured with wide field photography and the Astrotrac looks like a great setup that is easy to transport to dark skies, but I'd love some feedback as to the pitfalls and advantages of the system. Any input appreciated!
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:15 PM
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naskies (Dave)
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Following on from the previous thread, I find polar alignment pretty simple for wide angle and/or very short exposure work.

Accurate PA has been a bit fiddly for me so far - probably because I'm used to how sturdy and precise the EQ6 is by comparison.

I do have the polar scope, but haven't been terribly impressed with it - I don't bother with the EQ6 scope either. I've always used PHD-assisted drift align though... the AT's polar scope seems to get rave reviews from some people.

Based on six full nights of use so far, I'd say the AT is excellent for wide angle shots and travel portability, but it's definitely no replacement for "proper" imaging on a GEM. Since there's no Dec axis, you'd have to dither the frames by hand (release the ball head, move the camera slightly-but-not-too-much, reattach, hope you haven't screwed up the PA, etc)... you might go nuts having to do it every 3-5 mins

I'd be very interested to hear what other AT users have to say.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:56 AM
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Liz
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Looks good Peter, but a bit pricey, for those on a budget.
http://www.astrotrac.com/

I was looking at the set up in this months AS&T - a 'simple' hinge tracker. Obviously not as good as the Astrotrac, but maybe an alternative. One of the members in our club is having a go at it for me.

I am also a fan of widefield AP.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:21 AM
Poita (Peter)
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This is the big question for me, does the astrotrac significantly outperform a dual arm barn-door tracker like Rowlands one here:
http://synergous.com/flatpress/?x=en...y111127-004915

Has anyone used a guide scope with an AT?
I'd be interested to know if it was stable enough for my modified PST (effectively about the same size/weight as an ED80) for solar imaging.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:40 AM
adman (Adam)
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Hi Peter - I know your OP asked for info on using the astrotrac - but have you seen the Losmandy StarLapse system - basically 1/2 of a GM-8 with a controller for timelapse astro and terrestrial use. Thread here
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:14 AM
Poita (Peter)
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I have, but the size/weight/cost of a full setup doesn't sway me from just using an EQ6 for photography. The attraction of the Astrotrac is the ability to throw it into a backpack.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:12 AM
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rogerg (Roger)
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I have the AT, have had it for about a year and used it lots.

Don't bother with the guide scope, it isn't easy to use in the southern hemisphere. Instead I would highly recommed having a fitting machined in which you can mount a laser and align using that. I have done this (the first person that I know of to), and polar alignment is very very very easy to an accuracy ample for 3 minute exposures with a 50mm lens or wider (crop APC size sensor) every time, and I mean every single time I have tried it.

You won't hear much bad from me about the AT, so perhaps it's almost a baised review from me . For me, it's been the dream mount. I wish I'd bought it instead of my Losmandy GM-8 years ago, but amongst other things I did back then intend doing more portable longer focal length work which would not suit the AT so well. All the time I spent fussing with the Losmandy GM-8's tracking, guiding, many cables, fussy power requirements, worm issues, etc. With the AT, the first night I used it I plonked it down, aligned it, and within 10 minutes was doing 3 minute exposures with a 17mm lens with perfect results. Every night has been the same since.

I often do 5 minute exposures but 3 minutes is guaranteed with my setup, 5 minutes sometimes. I never fuss with fiddling to get a more accurate alingment once I'm set up, so if I wanted to I'm sure I could always get 5 minutes. I haven't had cause to try longer than 5 minutes.

The AT is singificantly compact, about the size of an adult forearm. I have it, the wedge they sell for it, it's battery, dew heaters for lenses, tripd head, and a few other bits and pieces in an aluminium case and that's the complete kit. I can carry that in one hand, the tripod in the other, and my photo backpack on my back, and I've comfortably walked a good couple of KM with that kit to get to a nice scenic location for some photography. I am looking to get a molded case made fo the AT which would make it even more compact - the current case has lots of empty space but it's the only one I have which is long enough to hold the length of the AT (about 43cm with the wedge attached).

Setup time for me is always less than 10 minutes for exposures up to 3 mins. It litterally goes like this:
- Unpack camera tripod and level it (I use the Manfrotto 055xProB)
- Put the wedge (with AT attached) on the tripod
- Rough polar alignment using compass
- Put camera head (I use Manfrotto 488RC ball head) on the AT. Camera on it.
- Hang the battery off the tripod (I have a 6Ah in a carry bag)
- Attach power cable.
- Unfold AT to turn it on, pre-wind forward.
- Put laser in polar alignment holder and clip switched on
- Look through binoculars at Sigma Oct, with ther hand tweak wedge for alignment (takes about 2 minutes).
- Turn off laser, take it out to keep it warm, start AT tracking.

Ready to go.

What's the catch? Well it's tracking is limited to 2 hours before you rewind it. This isn't much of a problem for normal astrophotography but for time lapse video panning it means you video isn't smooth through that rewind period. To do my alignment method (or use the polar scope) you need view of the southern celestial pole. I have often done 3 minute exposures where I have only aligned using a compass due to this but that's more hit and miss.

The AT isn't a goto, doesn't have DEC guiding. This means it doesn't suit everyone.

I've used the AT visually with my megrez 80 no problem. The weight isn't an issue and is fun to use like this, but longer focal lengths you'd want a mount you can at least manually slew to easily centre targets more easily. Although thinking about it I supose you could just put a Manfrotto geared head on the AT and then you have slow motion controls.

I think the AT came at the right time, there are a combination of factors which make it work well:
- It's accurate RA tracking and portaility
- DSLR's having good long exposure capabilities (giving good results in 3-5 minute exposures)
- DSLR's having live view (for focusing)

Those three things combined mean it works well as a self contained no-fuss unit. Without one of those aspects I think the mount its self would not be as useful.

I use a canon cable interval timer and don't take a laptop out in the field.

Regardng the starlapse: The idea of greater than 2 hour tracking time appeals. It's extra electronic capabilities appeal (tracking speeds etc). It's size an weight does not appeal. I often had tracking issues with my Losmandy GM-8 and having the AT which tracks so accurately in RA has hilighted to me just how often my issues were simply poor RA tracking and perhaps other issues with the GM-8. I got tired of always having to fiddle with the RA worm meshing of the GM-8 something I didn't even have to do with my LX200, 8 years it's senior. I'd need to be convinced these issues were solved or absolutely need the +2 hours tracking for me to consider the extra bulk of the starlapse worth it over the AT.

There have been people who have had problems with the AT. The most common is that upon arrival it doesn't track properly - something slips in the mechanism and it doesn't track. This has caused frustration for others, I haven't experienced it myself.

Pictures of my AT setup:
http://www.rogergroom.com/items/astrotrac_equipment

A selection of photos taken using my AT:
http://www.rogergroom.com/items/astrotrac_images

The mount does cost a bit, the starlapse is cheaper. But for me it has been a clear case of worth paying the money for something which "just works" - really, it "just works", I just point the camera where I want or plonk it down on an otherwise inaccessible spot and it "just works".

Roger.
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  #8  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:52 PM
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naskies (Dave)
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Roger - You've taken some beautiful photos! The laser polar alignment approach is ingenious - I can often see the SCP by visually star hopping between Crux, LMC, SMC, and the Octans, but lining it up through the polar scope is a challenging to say the least. The laser would make it very quick and easy.

Peter - Astrotrac claims a peak-to-peak periodic error of <= 5 arc seconds. From what I've read by people who have actually tested it, this is accurate. I'd say that poor polar alignment and tripod/ballhead flexure would be the usual culprit behind trailed stars.

I've used a guide scope with the AT - very good for drift aligning, and PHD works just like with my EQ6 except it doesn't have Dec guiding obviously.
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:24 PM
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barx1963 (Malcolm)
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Hi Roger
Well done on using the Astro Trac so successfully. The laser idea was one idea I had thought of when I have been considering the AT as a possibility. The issue I saw with this was how to ensure that the laser itself is accurate, so the bean is actually pointing exactly parallel to the barrell of the laser and how to mount it accurately on the AT itself.

Malcolm
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:34 PM
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rogerg (Roger)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naskies View Post
Roger - You've taken some beautiful photos! The laser polar alignment approach is ingenious - I can often see the SCP by visually star hopping between Crux, LMC, SMC, and the Octans, but lining it up through the polar scope is a challenging to say the least. The laser would make it very quick and easy.

Peter - Astrotrac claims a peak-to-peak periodic error of <= 5 arc seconds. From what I've read by people who have actually tested it, this is accurate. I'd say that poor polar alignment and tripod/ballhead flexure would be the usual culprit behind trailed stars.

I've used a guide scope with the AT - very good for drift aligning, and PHD works just like with my EQ6 except it doesn't have Dec guiding obviously.
Thanks.

Interesting to hear of someone who's done autoguiding with it, I haven't tried that myself.

FYI, PE seems to not present its self in my images, but I haven't measured it myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barx1963 View Post
Hi Roger
Well done on using the Astro Trac so successfully. The laser idea was one idea I had thought of when I have been considering the AT as a possibility. The issue I saw with this was how to ensure that the laser itself is accurate, so the bean is actually pointing exactly parallel to the barrell of the laser and how to mount it accurately on the AT itself.

Malcolm
I have two theories and I think either works fine, or at least seem to for me in practice. I used the first initially but then realised the potential of the second and use that more now but can't say I've had a problem with polar alignment being off either way.

1) I always have the laser rotated the same way, positioned on the same side/place of the AT. I hence very quickly become familiar with where the laser should be pointing near sigma oct for a good alignment, so any misalignment of laser or holder end up being factored in by just knowing where it should be pointing.

2) By putting the laser in and swivelling the polar alignment arm of the AT around the mount you see the extremes of pointing error in the configuration. So, looking through the binoculars you swivel the polar alignment arm around from side to side a couple of times quickly and the centre of the circle that is drawn in the sky by the end of the laser is where the true centre of alignment is and where you need to put the south celestial pole.

Not sure if they're scientifically accurate, but they seem to work


Roger.
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:58 PM
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naskies (Dave)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
FYI, PE seems to not present its self in my images, but I haven't measured it myself.
According to my calculations, a 300 mm lens would give a field of view of 5 arc secs per pixel on the 6.4 um pixels of my 5DmkII - so anything shorter than that wouldn't be affected by PE.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:16 PM
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netwolf
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There are other options popping up for example this one from japan called toast-pro
http://www.tan14.com/Others.htm

http://www.astronomyforum.net/astron...very-cool.html

Seems very compact and portable.
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:52 PM
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mithrandir (Andrew)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
There are other options popping up for example this one from japan called toast-pro
http://www.tan14.com/Others.htm

http://www.astronomyforum.net/astron...very-cool.html

Seems very compact and portable.
Their web page appears to say they are out of stock.

TOAST-Pro Set-B
Body, Polar finder unit, Battery box, power cable, Compact soft carrying case
96,600 Yen - in real currency around $AU1300.

Hmmmmmmmm.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:13 AM
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netwolf
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Andrew, there is a direct website i found for Toat-tech.
http://www.toast-tech.com/

Also this guy has an interesting project going on Project Orion, aims to build something for around 300$.
http://forum.timescapes.org/phpBB3/v...1b2a32a50feefe
Also has a Project Chronos (link in his signature) for time lapse machine.

Regards
Fahim
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  #15  
Old 06-01-2012, 01:51 AM
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renormalised (Carl)
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Pity it's in Japanese....would be nice to know what it's going on about the kit
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  #16  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:06 AM
luigi
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Another AT user here.
Roger has said everything very well.

I do use the polar scope, from a dark location it's easy to find the trapezium near Sigma Oct and then the alignment is very accurate. From a light polluted place I use the C&P method (compass & pray).

I've done up to 3 minutes with a 135mm lens and 5 minutes with shorter focal legths even with a very very raw alignment.

The best about the AT is that you can setup in 5 minutes.

In a recent trip we did some tests and without guiding the AT is more accurate than 2 EQ mounts we also had.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
Andrew, there is a direct website i found for Toat-tech.
http://www.toast-tech.com/
Fahim, that's where I got the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Pity it's in Japanese....would be nice to know what it's going on about the kit
Carl, Firefox asks if I want pages translated. It gets Google to do the work, and does produce Jinglish but you get the general idea. It does a much better job of western European languages.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:49 PM
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renormalised (Carl)
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I use Firefox, Andrew....got the latest version, actually (9.0.0). Don't have it setup to ask if I want the page translated....suppose I should
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Old 28-04-2012, 08:19 PM
mymoon (Aziz)
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I too am an Astrotrac user. I have to modify the astrotrac to allow me to image at 3 deg N.

http://www.pbase.com/aziz/image/142471813


But the Astrotrac fondly known locally as the Gunting (scissors) is still a lot of equipment to cart around and set up. Ok by car but if there is any air travel involved this Pentax alternative looks interesting especially if it was a combined terestrial and astrophotography trip as it would be for most trips..

Click http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/p...s-namibia.html


Pentax claims their set up on the tripod are as follows:

(Click http://www.pentax.jp/english/news/2011/201107.html)

For 50mm lens up to 300 sec

For 200mm lens up to 300sec at zenith reduced to 160sec at 45 deg.

The FOV for Canon APC cameras at 200mm is 6.5X4.3 deg enough to frame both the flame nebula and Orion nebula

The whole set up camera and lenses and tripod and spare batteries can be carried on a backpack or a a aircraft cabin flight bag.

Interesting.

Any opinions/user experience.

cheers
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  #20  
Old 30-04-2012, 07:35 PM
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JB80 (Jarrod)
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From everything I have read and seen plus given the reports in this thread it just backs up that the AT is most likely the portable widefield mount of choice, I don't think I have yet to hear a bad word about it.
With that said however I have considered this and don't think it's the mount for me, at least not just yet. Although I can't really say I have any experience of the mount.

But then I have no want to put anything larger than a dslr and lens on it. The Pentax system looks good but that would require a change of camera kit. The losmandy doesn't look portable enough and the toast is just too expensive.
Basically my mind has settled on the Vixen Polarie and I don't think I can be talked out of it, it offers supreme portability given it's not much bigger than an old VHS tape and the results I have seen are every bit impressive.
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