I tried my new setup last night begininng with using Aligmaster to polar align. The stars it gave me made things impossible from my limited view in the backyard at the moment. I have found this thread and will give the new star list a go.
However even with the one star that was good last night - Canopus, I found that centering that in the main scope (106mm refractor) after slewing to it using Alignmaster was very tricky using eqmod. OK so I am just a newbie and the controls in eqmod can have me going in the wrong direction pretty quickly so not surprising. I did not have my game controller going so that made it 10 times trickier trying to look down the eyepiece whilst using the keyboard on the laptop whilst being blinded by the screen to boot .
Any advice? Would using the Orion Autoguider scope instead of the main scope be OK (easier) with Alignmaster?
It'd be best that you first align your finder scope to the main scope before it gets dark so that when you view thru the finder scope for a "rough" view of the position of the alignment star you'll be able to "center" it in the finder scope and hence it would be pretty close now in the main scope too
I normally use a 12mm reticuled crosshairs EP and that is pretty high mag
It'd be best that you first align your finder scope to the main scope before it gets dark so that when you view thru the finder scope for a "rough" view of the position of the alignment star you'll be able to "center" it in the finder scope and hence it would be pretty close now in the main scope too
I normally use a 12mm reticuled crosshairs EP and that is pretty high mag
HTH
Cheers
Bill
Thank Bill. I was trying to avoid having a finderscope on this rig as well but maybe I do need it. Might have trouble finding a distant object from the backyard during the day. Actually did you mean the Orion Guidescope as a finderscope? Would that be OK at 80mm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter.M
Wack the camera off your guider in the main scope, and then call up the reticule in whatever software you use. PHD has a "bullseye" overlay.
Yes I tried that Peter. The guy on the Aligmaster sight made it look so easy I paid for the software straight up! He would make a good used car salesman . I couldn't see bugger all doing it but I thing it might relate to my problem #2 - not having enough back focus on the main reflector. I guess it effects the Orion cam the same as my DSLR. I will give that another crack when my extension tube arrives.
Thank Bill. I was trying to avoid having a finderscope on this rig as well but maybe I do need it. Might have trouble finding a distant object from the backyard during the day. Actually did you mean the Orion Guidescope as a finderscope? Would that be OK at 80mm? ...
Dave
Basically if you use either the Reticule EP as per my suggestion or as Peter.M suggested the Finder/Guider thus using the "bullseye" target in PHD you should be aiming to achieve the same end result - ie you'll have the target alignment star needing to be "centred" in the crosshairs/bullseye!!
This means that you've got to have either the Reticule EP or your Orion Guidescope properly aligned to the main OTA first - ie when you can see any star centred in your scope you should see that same star centred in the finderscope or the Orion Guidescope
I usually use the finder/reticule EP as well as having the guidescope with the guide camera and using PHD to double check that both are "centred" on the alignment star that I pick (yes the Orion 80mm Guidescope can be used for sure as a finder - only if there is a guider camera attached - Peter.M's method)
Alignmaster is a good piece of software to use as it shortens the time required to gain very close polar alignment of the mount - I used to drift align in the early days and this took quite a bit of time but now with Alignmaster it is just about 10mins or less! I wished his instructions are much clearer in explanation and if things don't go right but on IIS you'll be able to get a lot of help from experienced users who can help you out - in fact I got myself on track thru a PM to someone here who introduced Alignmaster to IIS members
Thanks Bill. Yes I think one of my big mistakes was not having the guidescope and main OTA aligned before doing anything. I will do that first up next crack I get at it but I think finding the right star pair will be the real killer for me. That will improve soon after a bit of backyard landscaping is finished. Funny how my landscaping ideas have gone from "House & Garden" to "What's best for Astronomy"
I just remembered that if you use the Orion Guidescope with say the Orion StarShoot Autoguider CCD then you must use an extension tube that is aro 30mm to rack out the end part to enable the guidescope to come to focus - when purchased from Bintel the kit does include the extension tube of the correct length
I've moved away from using the Orion Guidescope and use the 9x50mm Finder that comes with the OTA - modded at the rear end to take the guider CCD
Oops! I misread Peter.M's method, thought he meant to use the guidescope/guide camera combo - I've realised that Peter.M's method is also very workable - ie replace the usual EP/diagonal with the guide camera and then locate the alignment star thru the main scope as if you would with a EP/diagonal - using the bullseye in PHD would sure put the alignment spot-on! - Yep Alignmaster would be happy with that!
Oops! I misread Peter.M's method, thought he meant to use the guidescope/guide camera combo - I've realised that Peter.M's method is also very workable - ie replace the usual EP/diagonal with the guide camera and then locate the alignment star thru the main scope as if you would with a EP/diagonal - using the bullseye in PHD would sure put the alignment spot-on! - Yep Alignmaster would be happy with that!
Cheers
Bill
No problems. Yes I tried to follow the tutorial vid on the Alignmaster site by using my Philips SPC9000NC but that was before I knew I didn't have enough backfocus. So I will try it again when the extension tube arrives.
Yep. What I usually do is do a quick drift alignment by watching the graphs in phd with tracking turned off, then move the guide camera to the main scope and use it to center stars precisely in alignmaster. I found that without the coarse drift alignment the star would end up slewing out of the FOV when alignmaster did its calibration and bringing it back to center then is very difficult.
Yep. What I usually do is do a quick drift alignment by watching the graphs in phd with tracking turned off, then move the guide camera to the main scope and use it to center stars precisely in alignmaster. I found that without the coarse drift alignment the star would end up slewing out of the FOV when alignmaster did its calibration and bringing it back to center then is very difficult.
Right so:
Make sure mount is level
Have scope pointing south at (in my case) 32 degrees dec
Do a coarse drift align with PHD as above
Close down PHD?
Use Alignmaster to fine tune
Tear hair out when I can't see second alignment star
Close it all down. Get the dob out and enjoy myself instead!
To be truly honest with you, if you can use alignmaster stars don't bother with drift alignment its a waste of your time!
Your initial alignment is quite important because it makes your overall setup so much more speedie. If you are around the house grab a straight piece of timber and lay it across the back two legs of your scope this will be the best way of getting south with your compass, then you can use a inclometer either analogue or on your phone to set the alt.
it generally takes me 2 iterations and a 3rd to confirm my alignment. I also utilize my camera and maxim dls Point Telescope Here feature. so once i have the first star centered I really don't even need the wireless controller because it lands the star on the sensor and from there its a right click go here done. very quick very easy.
One other thing I would really push you away from using the finder guider to do your alignment as it may;
A. Not be in line with your telescope let alone the mount
B. its too wide if i remember correctly its somewhere around 5 degrees FOV. so what is only 1 arc min out on the finder could be somewhere around 5 minutes out in your main scope. So your over all accuracy is up the duff big time!
I would be pushing you to really use your camera to do the alignment as it means you can do it really quick and easy without trying to figure it out and as for point B you can use software to help you with your accuracy
Hi Brendan,
Yep definitely will give the camera a go once I get that extension tube! Don't worry - I do not want to use drift alignment if I can help it. I hear you on the finder scope issue. The wood on the back legs pointing east / west you mean to get the front leg south? Used the inclinometer on the phone and iPad to get the 32 degrees alt a while back.The mounts scale is way out!
Cheers
Dave
Hmmmm...Hi Brendan, in typing this I recognize you are right about software, planks of wood etc however...as a newbie...so no disrespect intended...
I just spent 7 months trying to get alignment right as a newbie and what nailed it was buying an illuminated reticule and using the link below...(reverse for southern hemisphere) as well as discovering that shonky Jim did the finishing work on my mount late on a Friday afternoon..
and look under techniques, polar technique , drift alignment. Theres even a little widget so you can practice and in fact I am sure I got this link from this site...
I also discovered that whoever glued the declination scale on my heq5 was a nutter as it is 6 degrees out which puts paid to any attempt to find the right angle using iPhone, inter web, etc
I bought a guiding setup for Christmas ( rather, Santa did..) but as I don't have a permanent setup then benefits of using software are lost if guide scope is knocked out of alignment when dismantling after a nights imaging which it invariably is and by the time you have cooked for wife due to guilt trip generated by knowing you are going to be gawping at dso as soon as its dark, it's dark and you can't align the guidescopes with the main scope cos you can't see a damn thing blah de blah...
So, learn to drift align, it's really not that difficult..I cheated by hammering brackets into lawn after finally getting it right, which fit snuggly around legs of mount ( wife was not impressed...) and have left the mount installed as weather is ok, but I know I will need to move it sometime if only to try a new dark site and to be frank, 30 mins drift aligning in a no fuss way against time spent realigning scopes in the dark and then using the software to actually align isn't in my view, at least given my circumstances, going to save much time and you do learn a new skill
Yeah - three posts in and your ranting already and giving Brendan some what for. Nice work .
I have yet to give Alignmaster another crack because of various things but hopefully this weekend. I would love it to work for me and if it does I will be chuffed. I do agree (if this is what you mean) that learning the skill of drift alignment can't hurt but the more time I have for imaging the better as far as I am concerned. And hell, I have a lot of other things too learn anyway!
Question: when you setup your mount - get the tripod base level, attach the mount using the primary locking shaft etc. When you go to polar align and you need to use the azimuth bolts to rotate the mount a bit I find I can't unless I loosen the locking shaft. I can see that should be the case but I will be buggered if that is mentioned in any texts I have read. No problem really but I do wonder about the level of the mount when I have noticed that tightening that locking shaft actually splays the tripod legs out a bit more thereby possibly stuffing up the level if the ground is a little rough i.e paving bricks etc.. end rant.
I can get my alignment pretty well in the ball park without the illuminated retical.
I don't own a perm setup and i don't have spots drawn or angles set so i can set up quickly. I set my gear up every night from absolute scratch. I also don't use a guide scope to guide with so that kills that precept as i use my main telescope to do the alignment, this takes into account that I have tried to make sure that the mount head, dovetail, rings and scope are as close to concentric as possible.
If you actually went in and looked at the resources page of my website and had a look at how to set up the EQ6 or any GEM for that matter you would see that no where in that guide i mention anything about software. I actually put in a really quick way to get polar alignment and then how to drift align, you see i have come from a newbie and after nearly 4 years of astrophotography know just a few little tricks. I don't need to setup in daylight to make everything work correctly and my friends know this as i have finished exams at 9pm driven 3hrs into the sticks and setup at midnight to be imaging by 1-130am.
As for pieces of wood that would have to be one of the best ways to nail your approximate south setup as every time i do it im within a degree or two of true south with a poxy little 9 dollar compass. The reason why this is one of the best ways is it doesn't count on you guessing that your at a perpendicular to your tripod. This will also smash the time it takes you to drift align in half. The other thing about drift aligning that i don't like is it takes so damn long and unless you are on a perm setup is a waste of your time as you will pull your gear down and pack up at the end of the night.
No mean for disrespect but sometimes understanding what is out there and the products that can be used is better than using ways of the past that where the best method only because technology wasn't at that level. Digital astrophotography is leaping ahead nowdays and those who love to hold onto old ways do it for nostalgia, people like me love to get the best that they can and are ever trying to improve. You'll pick which one you want to travel and that suites you. Till then ill help people with what i know to work and work well.
End rant
Brendan
P.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT
Hmmmm...Hi Brendan, in typing this I recognize you are right about software, planks of wood etc however...as a newbie...so no disrespect intended...
I just spent 7 months trying to get alignment right as a newbie and what nailed it was buying an illuminated reticule and using the link below...(reverse for southern hemisphere) as well as discovering that shonky Jim did the finishing work on my mount late on a Friday afternoon..
and look under techniques, polar technique , drift alignment. Theres even a little widget so you can practice and in fact I am sure I got this link from this site...
I also discovered that whoever glued the declination scale on my heq5 was a nutter as it is 6 degrees out which puts paid to any attempt to find the right angle using iPhone, inter web, etc
I bought a guiding setup for Christmas ( rather, Santa did..) but as I don't have a permanent setup then benefits of using software are lost if guide scope is knocked out of alignment when dismantling after a nights imaging which it invariably is and by the time you have cooked for wife due to guilt trip generated by knowing you are going to be gawping at dso as soon as its dark, it's dark and you can't align the guidescopes with the main scope cos you can't see a damn thing blah de blah...
So, learn to drift align, it's really not that difficult..I cheated by hammering brackets into lawn after finally getting it right, which fit snuggly around legs of mount ( wife was not impressed...) and have left the mount installed as weather is ok, but I know I will need to move it sometime if only to try a new dark site and to be frank, 30 mins drift aligning in a no fuss way against time spent realigning scopes in the dark and then using the software to actually align isn't in my view, at least given my circumstances, going to save much time and you do learn a new skill
"Question: when you setup your mount - get the tripod base level, attach the mount using the primary locking shaft etc. When you go to polar align and you need to use the azimuth bolts to rotate the mount a bit I find I can't unless I loosen the locking shaft. I can see that should be the case but I will be buggered if that is mentioned in any texts I have read. No problem really but I do wonder about the level of the mount when I have noticed that tightening that locking shaft actually splays the tripod legs out a bit more thereby possibly stuffing up the level if the ground is a little rough i.e paving bricks etc.. end rant."
What is happening is the paint on the mount head and the tripod head is actually binding and hence wont let you do the adjustment. Mine doesn't do it much anymore, i guess because i have worn it to a point where its all good. if you really want put something like plastic between the two almost like a shim so it will slide that should alliviate the issue.
Alternitively don't touch the hand bolt that lives under the spreader just ever so slightly and im talking just till it lets go the main hand bolt right under the top of the mount. The actual bottom one will not move but the top loosen's up, the spreader will not slide up and push the legs apart either. Just remember to tighten it up after your adjustment and re check. Its just a little quirk of the cheap mount we all learn to live with it!
Ive done it this way for ages and I have had no issues. Just on a side not make sure that the azimith adjustment peg from the tripod itself is tight. If not you will do your head in and never get there!
Thanks Brendan. Shims might be a good idea. Just setting up for a crack at Alignmaster a bit later. Gave the bolts a try and you have to "man up" to work the bolts but they do in fact move the mount head if you persist. Maybe a couple of gym sessions on the wrists .
" Just on a side not make sure that the azimith adjustment peg from the tripod itself is tight. " Good call it was loose!
4 years of working with these mounts means i have pretty much seen all they have to offer in the way of problems from fried PWM circuits to poor PE, to not connecting to the PC happy days i says.
Oh one other thing don't be affraid to loosen the bolts right off and physically move the mount with your hands. use the adjustment knobs for fine adjustments. and with that use a dry rag itll make it easier to grip and save your fingers I use my hat most times and its not too much of a issue
. 
. I couldn't see bugger all doing it but I thing it might relate to my problem #2 - not having enough back focus on the main reflector. I guess it effects the Orion cam the same as my DSLR. I will give that another crack when my extension tube arrives.
- Yep Alignmaster would be happy with that!
