Discraceful Barnet Govt Cuts funding to Perth Observatory

[noxidc]

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/west...-1226559367391

"I think it's an absolute disgrace that the state government is going to cut out science at Perth Observatory altogether - it's not just being cut, it's being cancelled," he said.

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

I have a good idea ....let's cut the ' perks ' that the pollies get .......we'll have heaps to fund this Observatory then .....

How about it ....Mr Barnet

If a ' BIG ROCK ' was heading our way.....they would be pleading for answer's from the Astronomers........sorry Mr Barnet ....you cut the funding .....REMEMBER...!!

Obviously ...not a ' forward ' thinker at all ..!

Flash ..!!

[astroron (Ron)]

This coming from a government that is supposed to be the wealthiest in Australia is just pathetic "penny pinching"
Cheers

[TrevorW]

don't get me started on barney we have an election in May so hopefully we will see the ass end of him

oops politics can't be discusted

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

don't get me started on barney we have an election in May so hopefully we will see the ass end of him

oops politics can't be discusted

The chances don't look to promising for that Trevor
Cheers

[rogerg (Roger)]

Originally Posted by astroron

This coming from a government that is supposed to be the wealthiest in Australia is just pathetic "penny pinching"
Cheers

They're spending all their money on a useless "Elizabeth Quay" in the city foreshore while the cut critical science (not just astronomy) and other government funded activities.

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by rogerg

They're spending all their money on a useless "Elizabeth Quay" in the city foreshore while the cut critical science (not just astronomy) and other government funded activities.

Yes Roger, I have heard a lot about that project,and none of it good.
Cheers

[bartman (Bart)]

Grrrrrr
Bill Marmion on talk back radio.
ABC Mornings with Geoff Hutchinson:
Asked if he knew what scientific work was carried out at the Perth Observatory:
"ah look, my understanding from what I've been told from, from the ah, from the director general is that they do do a lot of monitoring of , ah, of, through the optical, ah, telescope of what's, what's happening in the, in the, in the sky, and this information is, is, as I understand, quite useful to researchers around the world."

I copied this from the newspaper ( West Australian today 24-1-13).
I wrote him today and asked him ( amongst other things) would $300,00 really help the states budget?

Waiting for a response now......
Bartman

[Kunama]

The man is not exactly a rocket scientist is he? But the mining concerns love him, not so the residents of Freo. who have to breathe lead carb dust.

[bartman (Bart)]

Mmmmmm wasnt there someting down in Albany/Esperance way too....with birds dying...from lead poisoning .......I forget....
He doesnt need to be a rocket scientist to see the value of this century + old site.
Would NSW government stop Siding Springs Obs cause they needed a bit of extra funding for XXX?

[rogerg (Roger)]

Originally Posted by bartman

Would NSW government stop Siding Springs Obs cause they needed a bit of extra funding for XXX?

Every other state sold off their state-run observatory long ago. Perth Observatory is the lucky last standing and so the last one so directly subject to government funding decisions. SSO is run by ANU, although I'm unsure on the funding arrangements. You can see how Perth Observatory is in a unique situation in this regard though.

No australian government likes funding science. Given they choice they usually cut. Unfortunate.

[bartman (Bart)]

Originally Posted by rogerg

Every other state sold off their state-run observatory long ago. Perth Observatory is the lucky last standing and so the last one so directly subject to government funding decisions. SSO is run by ANU, although I'm unsure on the funding arrangements. You can see how Perth Observatory is in a unique situation in this regard though.

No australian government likes funding science. Given they choice they usually cut. Unfortunate.

My apologies Roger et al....I did not know that....
I just assumed that anything to do with Astronomy was Government funded to some degree.......
Now I'm thinking back to the movie 'Contact'.
Maybe all the hype about the SKA got me thinking that it -Government funding- was all part of the same pool, whether it be a small/medium/large optical array or the SKA.........
Bugger...
Bugger indeed

[rogerg (Roger)]

Originally Posted by bartman

Maybe all the hype about the SKA got me thinking that it -Government funding- was all part of the same pool, whether it be a small/medium/large optical array or the SKA.........

This is something I wish the media would give more scrutiny. DEC are saying the cut is justified by the spending on the SKA. This is debatable because the money saved by the cut will be going directly to other DEC activities, not the SKA or other astronomy endeavors. Knowing this you can see the dance of words going on. However, we wouldn't want the SKA cut for the sake of research at the Perth Observatory as it's the SKA which has more potential right now.

I think funding for the SKA is through the Dept. Commerce. I am not sure how bright their future is for funding, something worth looking in to.

[DaveR]

I heard a govt spokesman say that they were cutting Perth obs funding because the SKA was a radio telescope which made the optical telescopes obsolete. Good to see their scientific knowledge is up to speed

[TrevorW]

Scumbags !!!

Oh I believe that has been voiced before

$27m to refurbish his own offices

[gary]

Originally Posted by rogerg

Every other state sold off their state-run observatory long ago. Perth Observatory is the lucky last standing and so the last one so directly subject to government funding decisions.

Hi Roger,

Not quite.

Sydney Observatory is part of the Powerhouse Museum which in turn is
part of the NSW Department of Trade, Investment, Regional Infrastructure and Services,
and is principally funded by an annual grant from the department.
Additional funds are generated from admission charges and commercial activities which include retail and café operations and venue hire.

Originally Posted by Roger

SSO is run by ANU, although I'm unsure on the funding arrangements. You can see how Perth Observatory is in a unique situation in this regard though.

Again, not quite.

The Sidings Springs Observatory hosts several telescopes, only a few of which are owned and managed by ANU.

For example, the largest telescope on the mountain, the 3.8m AAT, is operated by the
Australian Astronomical Observatory (AAO), which until recently had been called the
Anglo Australian Observatory, and it in turn is a division of the Australian Government
Department of Industry, Innovations, Science, Research & Tertiary Education.

Likewise, the UK Schmidt Telescope, which was the survey camera originally used by
the AAT, is also part of the federally funded AAO.

Some of the smaller telescopes, such as the Sky Mapper, are owned by ANU, which
in turn is a federally funded university.

There are other telescopes up there owned by other organizations. For example, the
Faulkes Telescope South is owned by the non-profit, private foundation Las Cumbres Observatory
Global Telescope Network and the robotically controlled ROTSE by UNSW.

Generally, when one walks around Sidings Springs, you are likely to bump into
two sets of workers. Those who work for the AAO and those who work for the ANU.
They have their own separate organizational hierarchy, payrolls, staff cars, etc.

No australian government likes funding science. Given they choice they usually cut. Unfortunate.

Again, not quite.

For example, when the UK pulled out of their share of funding of the AAO, the
Commonwealth Government stepped up in 2008 and passed the Australian
Astronomical Observatory Bill 2009 to ensure it would be fully funded.
See http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C20...emorandum/Text

As another example, the Australian Government went to considerable effort and expense
in Australia's bid to host the SKA. They have committed funding of AUD $111 million
to the Australian SKA Pathfinder project.

The Australian organization that helps design and build the SKA is the Australian
Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO).

The Australian Government, through CSIRO, also funds telescopes such as
the Australia Telescope Compact Array at Narrabri and the Parkes Radio Telescope.

The Learmouth Solar Observatory is funded by the Australian Government Bureau
of Meteorology and the US Air Force.

An article appeared in this forum earlier this week about ANU's Professor Ken Freeman
winning the Henry Norris Russell Lectureship, the top prize of the American
Astronomical Society.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-2...-prize/4482442

In November 2012, Professor Ken Freeman had also been awarded the $300,000 Prime
Minister's Prize for Science in a ceremony at Parliament House.
See http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-3...awards/4344624

Last week, the Prime Minister personally visited the Sidings Springs Observatory
site to assess the damage. See http://www.aao.gov.au/
Contractors have been working on site to ensure its safety before staff return.

[rogerg (Roger)]

Originally Posted by gary

Hi Roger,

Not quite.
...
Again, not quite.
...
Again, not quite.

Very good - I am happy to be corrected I did completely misunderstand the funding of the various institutions etc on the east coast.

I wonder what this means for how the Perth Observatory should be funded? What you are suggesting is that various other observatories are heavily funded by the government. Does this mean the PO should be funded more to have it's fair share, or not necessarily funded as funding is being sufficiently placed in other institutions?

Perth Observatory also gets money from public viewing activities which help to keep it's doors open. Sounds very similar to the Sydney Observatory just it's government funding comes through a slightly different path.

My understanding is that the SKA funding for further development beyond the initial term (which I'm not sure how long that was but was under the impression it had expired) is pending and overdue?

[gary]

Originally Posted by rogerg

Very good - I am happy to be corrected I did completely misunderstand the funding of the various institutions etc on the east coast.

Hi Roger,

You are most welcome.

Plus I forgot that the Federal Government also funds access to some of the large
optical telescopes overseas, such as the Gemini North (Hawaii) and Gemini South
(Chile) and the Subaru (Hawaii). So funds are paid to the consortium by the
Federal Government and observing time access for Australian astronomers
is managed by the Australian Gemini Office, which is part of the AAO.

See http://ausgo.aao.gov.au/

I wonder what this means for how the Perth Observatory should be funded? What you are suggesting is that various other observatories are heavily funded by the government. Does this mean the PO should be funded more to have it's fair share, or not necessarily funded as funding is being sufficiently placed in other institutions?

Since the Perth Observatory is operated by the State Government of West Australia,
just as the Sydney Observatory is operated by the State Government of NSW,
it will clearly be a decision to be made by the good folk of WA.

It would be a pity to see its science program cut.

My understanding is that the SKA funding for further development beyond the initial term (which I'm not sure how long that was but was under the impression it had expired) is pending and overdue?

The SKA is built and funded by a consortium of nations who have signed a
letter of agreement.

The SKA Pathfinder array in WA went live last October.

Only last month, Science and Research Minister Chris Evans announced
a new $18.8 million research and development fund towards the SKA.
This is to help ensure Australian engineers and scientists had access to funds
needed for R&D before construction began on the SKA proper in 2016.

See http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...ceives-funding

Whilst Australia weathered the global economic downturn far better than
most other parts of the world, there has been concern for some time with some
of the partner nations being able to find the funds for their share. Hopefully things
will turn around for the better for them.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

don't get me started on barney we have an election in May so hopefully we will see the ass end of him

oops politics can't be discusted

It won't make any difference Trevor, it was Labor who wanted to completely close the Observatory in the late 80's. A friend of mine and I lobbied strongly for it to remain open and in some small way, I hope, we contributed to its savoir then. This has been on the cards for a long time, sadly. At least it is staying open for night tours, for now.

And furthermore, no pollie is going to stop spending money on his pet projects to the exclusion of more important things, like science. It just won't happen. Changing pollies will only change their particular pet projects, so, unless the new pollie is a strong advocate for astronomy, nothing will change, at least, for the better.

Having worked on science projects at Perth Observatory in the nineties, it is personally very sad indeed to see it all come to this, but I think inevitable. You only have to look to the United States to see the state of optical astronomy is under extreme budgetary pressure. Pretty much everywhere in the world has lived beyond its means. It is always the fringes that first bare the brunt of funding cuts.

But, look at the bright side, if they do shut the observatory, there will be a lot of neat stuff that will be auctioned off. Mind you, I hope it doesn't actually come to this. Furthermore, on the bright side, amateurs will have to play an increasing role to fill the gaps.

I think, from what we have seen around the world, optical astronomy has seen its heyday, it is now radio astronomy's time to shine!

[Scorpius51 (John)]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

I think, from what we have seen around the world, optical astronomy has seen its heyday, it is now radio astronomy's time to shine!

I think that radio astronomy has played a very significant role for many decades, and yes, its' role will quite likely become even more so. But, to say that optical astronomy has had its' hey day would provoke a very negative reaction from the astronomical community. I assume that you are using 'optical' in the general sense that refers to the use of glass lenses and mirrors. However, astronomers use that term to describe observations at visible wavelengths, as distinct from infrared observations, that still employ a similar technology. Now that we are capable of placing telescopes in orbit, free of the Earth's atmosphere, these 'light-based' telescopes can also shine. The Hubble is only 2.4m, and look at what it can do!

There is a new generation of large 'light-bucket' telescopes that are operational now, and several that are being planned for the future. A good example is the Giant Magellan Telescope which will be built in Chile. The ANU is a member of a group of universities (mostly in the US) that are currently designing instrumentation to be used on the GMT. Check out GMTIFS, the ANU's instrument that has been selected as one of the first-light instruments.

Glass mirrors and lenses are far from being consigned to the history books, just yet! This technology complements radio astronomy, and I doubt whether it will ever be replaced by it - certainly not in our life time. But even these projects are potentially under threat from government decisions, here and O/S.

However, to return to the main topic of this thread, I would hope that the WA government doesn't close the Perth Observatory, just to save the amount that a single pollie spends on entertainment each year! The only way that these things can change is by people-power. Unfortunately, the average voter doesn't understand, or worse, doesn't care! We don't have many state or federal politicians that have vision - particularly when it comes to science & technology. If it can't be dug out of the ground today and sold tomorrow, then it's very difficult to hold their attention.