#21  
Old 14-06-2016, 04:58 PM
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Yeah that unit look ok although a tad large on the current PCB pad size. Probably why we might need to draw up our own PCB cad. To give a little fat on some pads.

I've asked on CN...they reckon farnell (now element14) has it. I did a search of Element14 UK...nil stocks. Anyway karlfoxman is going to share his BOM from element14 and Mouser. I have a mouser account. Not sure of their shipping nowdays though.

Edit:
Mouser shipping free if over $60. You know this might be easier than RS. I'll do a comparasion and get back

Brendan
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Old 14-06-2016, 07:08 PM
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We only need to get enough parts from Mouser to get to $60. The rest can come from RS. But the part at Mouser shows "not in stock, call to quote"... it does not sound too good.

Now I have been thinking about making the PCB again. We do have the gerbers and images of the PCB... retracing the tracks may not be too time consuming...

edit: clicked post instead of preview

If we would to design our own (and it looks like it is only two of us and you can do Eagle and I can do Altium), did you have a look at cam85? I did not bother reading the details as it is work in progress but it fixes few issues that cam84 has. So partially incorporating those fixes could be beneficial. And we could make the housing smaller, cam84 has lots of "wasted" space as it was made to fit a pre-selected enclosure.

Last edited by luka; 14-06-2016 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 14-06-2016, 08:49 PM
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Damn...I was going off the mrn: CDRH4D28NP-6R8NC, as given in the CN forum. Looking at the different data sheets...damn...it's a no go on using this one.

Looks like I made a mistake...the correct mrn is:
CDRH4D28CLDNP-6R8PC . This is the digikey mrn previously given.

Mouser has one..guess which one...the wrong one! The Digikey info is the correct mrn.

Damn....Damn....

I haven't looked at the Cam85 and indeed was kinda waiting for this...but like many thing the originators have a lot on their plates so progress is slow. Not that I care for the delay, I'm happy to wait or indeed do our own CAD. That said, trace impedance; noise; PSU ripple...are all things that can turn a simple design into a nightmare.

Which leaves me to say either use CAM84 sq board, maybe some small minor changes ( like up-rated voltage regulators, +5V; 3.3V, with our own CAD) but keeping the basic layout the same.

I think a Frankenstein approach between CAm85 and CAm84 is asking for trouble. Like as seen in the CAM84 round boards.

FWIW...only musing ...chewing the cud atm.

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Old 14-06-2016, 10:07 PM
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I was not thinking to do any major changes, that would be a nightmare. I was thinking along the same lines as you, copy the signal paths of the cam84 exactly as they are so that when overlayed it looks exactly the same. And then to upgrade the transformers or whatever else looks bad. And then possibly move the non-signal lines to save space... there is lots of empty space on cam84 board.

But this was the section I liked in cam85m (google translation, not sure what some of the parts mean):
Quote:
Replacing the input transistor AD811JRZ amplifier provides signal gain of 2.5 times with a slight increase in signal / noise ratio as compared to the transistor irlml2803. The filtered interference improves too. Shelter is included in the non-inverting amplifying circuit is 2.5 times. Upon cooling the sensor to -5 degrees can be achieved rms noise in the ADC unit 12, which corresponds, if we take the well depth of 38,000, about 8 eV! It is close to the limit for ICX453AQ. In this case it was necessary to power the analog portion of the AD9826 +5 volts, as reference is equal to 4 volts.
I was just looking into it and it is not a simple change. We do have circuit diagrams from cam85 and cam85m which show the change. This part of circuit in cam85 looks almost identical to our cam84.

And as a side note regarding the choice of inductors, this is google translation from cam85 indicating that we need shielded inductor:
Quote:
Throttle power DR2 (CAM85), forming a 15 volt radiates to the surroundings noise. It is best to use shielded version of the choke. This also applies to other schemes cameras.
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  #25  
Old 15-06-2016, 12:21 PM
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I am pretty sure someone on IIS was going to get some composite boxes fabricated for this camera. Brendan might remember that?
I had considered doing it for the round pcb as we are a bespoke resin formulating company (at Cardiff) but real life dictated other priorities so I won't be proceeding.
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Old 15-06-2016, 08:13 PM
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Thanks Chris.

posting an new updated parts spreadsheet...but...since RS doesn't have all parts it'll have to be an RS/Element14 buy. Which brings me to the possibility buying from Digikey or Mouser might be cheaper as they both free ship if over $60 aust order.

Now going to have a look at cam85. I was busy doing a cad drawing for a powertech PSU I destroyed.

Now I'm free...

edit:

forgot to add the sheet...doh! Again this was done with winrar and re-named to "xx.zip"...so hope it works
Attached Files
File Type: zip Brendans BOM Cam84_v41.zip (15.4 KB, 73 views)

Last edited by wasyoungonce; 15-06-2016 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 15-06-2016, 08:20 PM
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Beware that there is cam85 and cam85m. The latter is the improved version.
As far as I can see cam85 has gerbers (with a mistake) and schematics while cam85m has only schematics.
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Old 15-06-2016, 08:30 PM
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Yeah saw this....8eV noise level...now that is quite low indeed. Again...it might be best to wait. Vakulenko certainly doing a damn fine job
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Old 15-06-2016, 09:57 PM
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It may be worth waiting. I was reading the translation of the camera forums and came across this (post 1456, from 31st of May 2016):
Quote:
Now I say that it will soon be another upgrade, the final - CAM86.
Interestingly, on the same thread, post 1470, Hutch84 posted their Altium designer files of the cam85m. The design seems to work although it got criticised for running the USB data lines all over the board.
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Old 15-06-2016, 10:41 PM
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Brendan,

I'd love to be doing this having DIY'd guitar amps and other stuff since the early-mid 70's but it just can't happen.

Disregarding (much to the annoyance of SWMBO) home projects, approx., five years ago for workish reasons I shelved two personal projects, a still (yes, I like my liquor) and building an arch-top guitar......a few months ago, in an attempt to regain something for me, I returned to the still and when finished I'll resume the guitar........logic said that I can enjoy my liquor while building the git BUT I can't enjoy playing the git while building the still . Add to that the fact that my scope hasn't seen light in over a year........say no more.
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Old 16-06-2016, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
It may be worth waiting. I was reading the translation of the camera forums and came across this (post 1456, from 31st of May 2016):
Interestingly, on the same thread, post 1470, Hutch84 posted their Altium designer files of the cam85m. The design seems to work although it got criticised for running the USB data lines all over the board.

My you have been doing some reading...I do need to catch up! That site is a gem. I think I remember reading some threads on this years back when I had a Gotostar unit. They were trying to hack the firmware so you could set your own gear ratio dividers...to use it on other mounts.

Oh...those Russians!

Chris....moonshine?...I love it...
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  #32  
Old 16-06-2016, 11:54 AM
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Just downloaded Sprint layout free viewer to view some of the "xxx.lay" PCB cad files used.

It's god awful but you get the idea...so I can re-draw into eagle PCB. I'll do the TEC cooler as an exercise. Also been looking at Cam85m in the Russian forum. mighty impressive. Also saw some discussion on sealing cases with HTS2000. I've used similar Aluminium brazing. It works ok. It's not TIG but it's easy to use especially if you use a stainless brush or wire scraper to clean the surfaces when the metal joint in molten (clears oxidisation as aluminium alloys form oxide layers almost immediately).
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Old 23-06-2016, 10:38 PM
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Brendan, which version of the cooler are you making? There is an Arduino Nano version on Vakulenko's github which is much simpler.

I have been following the thread about the Cam85m and I would say that the design has been finalised. Unless I am misunderstanding the google translation, it does not look like there will be any more changes. This will probably be the version to make and not Cam84. There are already gerbers for it from "faddy" and quite a few images of his build.

Regarding Cam86, this is what will change:
Quote:
Rome, tell how the work on the CAM86? What innovations expect? What is the fundamental difference from previous versions of the camera?

In principle - there is cheap processor (Atmega328). Flash the camera (upgrade), you can directly from the program nothing connecting / disconnecting, through the FT2232. Using the processor gave (like) otvyazku download from the company. It is expected to stir up the same cooling and exposure count. The picture quality is no different from CAM85M. So the question is moot - you need this option or not?
For me this is not important and worth waiting for. What do you think?

By the way, my D40 arrived. I feel bad opening it just to get the sensor.
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Old 24-06-2016, 10:38 AM
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There have been some minor improvements and some personal changes of cam85m by "Faddy" and they look great. I also think he use G106 case, which was slightly smaller. His set-up is pretty damn good indeed.

Looks as if cam86 might be final instalment with the Atmega328 to provide flash firmware updates and a USB hub. The thing I saw with Faddy's unit was some of the parts used are a little harder to get but so far a quick check shows them available!

I am doing an eaglecad drawing of his unit at the moment but it'll take some time as I just went from ver 5.6 to 7.5. Glad I did 5.6 was too old and lacked parts and footprint data.

This said.....I'm happy to use his gerbers and order PCBs now if you wish! The only downfall is I have little mechanical engineering equipment but can do basics. We will need a nose piece for filter and to seal against the case.

Not fused on cooling, yeas saw the other versions but since cooling is controlled but out of case electronics I'm not fussed.

edit:
doing a full parts list/cost and availability now.

edit edit:
Errrrgggghhh been at it for hrs...lots of cross checking. There are quite a few changes made by Faddy.....Might have to ask for parts list!

Last edited by wasyoungonce; 24-06-2016 at 03:05 PM.
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  #35  
Old 24-06-2016, 05:10 PM
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Luka...the case for Cam85m "Faddy" is the G106. From the case machine drawings, it has 25mm inside height clearance from inside base to inside top of lid. The PCB sits on a base land, 10mm up from base. Guessing a PCB thickness of 2mm, this leaves 13mm for component height (maximum)?

Do you agree? I need to have this in agreement as I am finding it difficult to find capacitors of suitable dia and height to those specified. I can substitute longer caps if the clearance mentioned is correct.

Specifically:
I can find C5; C6; C9; C10 (6mm diax 7mm H).
I Cannot find height suitable for C11 (330uf, 10V), looks to be 6 dia x ~9 h (I can only find 11mm h caps).
I Cannot find suitable for C8, 220uf 25V, 6 dia x 9 h (can only find 6.3 d x 11 h).
I Cannot find suitable for C47, 47uf 25V, 5 dia x 8 h (can only find 6 d x 7 h).

Lastly it is difficult to find any ICs: CXD1267AN apart from fleabay. I have some coming from UTSource, but given the parts I just got from them...I have doubts on them.
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Old 24-06-2016, 08:39 PM
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Brendan, where did you find the information about the case (G106)? Also where did you find the BOM with Faddy's modifications? I could only find his/her gerbers. Or did you get the BOM from the original Cam85 and then added the modifications yourself?

I do not have any real mechanical workshop capabilities here but, depending what we need, I could as a friend to help. Their resources are limited as well though (no mill for example).

I do have access to a 3D printer so at least that is sorted. Hope you don't mind red plastic :-)
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Old 25-06-2016, 08:44 AM
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I got the BOM from Cam85 and went thru the related posts in the forum as well as reviewing the PCB image he posted. I tracked his changes about the only questionable part I have identifying is Dr4, an 0805 inductor, I think it's ~1.5uh. There are minor errors on his PCB. He has 2 "C11's". One an electro one an 0805 cap. These are minor errors though. But to fully check I need to complete my own PCB CAD of Cam85m.

I have the rest of the Cam85m BOM pretty much done (see attached) except the small 0805 sized capacitor and resistors, they are common items no need to chase after atm.

The case G106 is a Gainta case. All info on it is here. Because he used the 106 case, height and size of component is critical. That said I calculated that we have an available clearance of 13mm (absolute max) so 11mm height electrolytic caps would be ok.

About the only "machining" part needed is the nose piece adaptor. Funny you should mention "printed parts"...he use some in his case parts design.
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File Type: zip cam85m.zip (12.6 KB, 100 views)
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Old 25-06-2016, 11:22 AM
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Geez, going through all posts and tracking all changes must have taken some time. Thank you.

I was actually wondering how did you know that faddy's case is G106 as I did not see G106 mentioned anywhere... until this morning. I looked specifically for this last night but could not find it. This morning I started the computer and the browser was still opened on the post I was looking at last night and G106 was there. Tired evening eyes...

To confirm the G106 dimensions, the inside clearance is 25mm and the PCB ledge is 10mm. PCBs are usually 1.6mm but if we round it to 2mm we have 25 - 10 - 2mm = 13mm clearance, just as you said.

Can we get the 106 case here? I found a case with the same outside dimensions here but there are no drawings to confirm the inside dimensions. Alternatively if we run out of space Jaycar has the same boxes but with 55mm height. Not the best but...

If we get too desperate with the too long capacitors, depending on space it may be possible to solder them with "long legs" and then bend the legs 90 degrees so that the capacitor is on its side instead of upright. Then a bit of hot glue tends to hold them in place quite well.

I saw the printed parts in faddy's design, that's why I mention the 3D printer :-)

And I may be able to source some of the small components that come in bulk packaging from work. I also have stacks of SMD resistors/capacitors at home but have to check sizes.

Regarding mechanincal parts, what is the plan to cut the openings in the box? Get it milled somewhere or drill-and-file method :-) And what about the copper finger?

Do we have a proper drawing of the nose piece adaptor? I may ask around how much it would cost to get it made. I also remember someone getting a cheap DSLR extension ring from ebay and gluing it to the front of the box :-)
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Old 25-06-2016, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
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Geez, going through all posts and tracking all changes must have taken some time. Thank you.
Urrrggghh don't ask It was dizzying to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
Can we get the 106 case here?
I've seen the 106 case at element14 and fleabay. Element14 sells the 106 ver for $26 but he 106mf(basically a flanged version, we can cut this off) for $12.25. Also fleabay. best to stay with these cases as the PCB was designed specifically for this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
If we get too desperate with the too long capacitors, depending on space it may be possible to solder them with "long legs" and then bend the legs 90 degrees so that the capacitor is on its side instead of upright. Then a bit of hot glue tends to hold them in place quite well.
Yep exactly what I was thinking but looks to be 11mm height caps are ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
I saw the printed parts in faddy's design, that's why I mention the 3D printer :-)
Excellent. Would need to get a copy of his specs, we might need to ask on their forum. I think they would be fine with this, they have done a good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
And I may be able to source some of the small components that come in bulk packaging from work. I also have stacks of SMD resistors/capacitors at home but have to check sizes
.

Talking dirty...I like it. Some of the parts I found can be substituted and indeed I have done this, like the 6V sot89 regulator, but some also come in big packs which we don't need. Element14 is a possibility to source these. The only hard to get part is the CXD1267AN. It's an old IC, no longer made. I have qty 5 coming from UTSource but are a little unsure of them being
"original". There are other sources...fleabay and some parts houses, but suffice to say...if it's from China..."its probably fake!" We shall see!

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
Regarding mechanincal parts, what is the plan to cut the openings in the box? Get it milled somewhere or drill-and-file method :-) And what about the copper finger?

Do we have a proper drawing of the nose piece adaptor? I may ask around how much it would cost to get it made. I also remember someone getting a cheap DSLR extension ring from ebay and gluing it to the front of the box :-)
Looks to be we can hand do most except the nose piece. This looks to be internal threaded for probably 2" adaptors, filter...not sure. Yes we could get it made ...not sure atm. As for the cooling finger, look any cold finger extension to the sensor, copper would be best thermally.

Probably we need to contact the guys on the Cam camera thread, Faddy and grim for parts check, use his gerbers and other parts specs. I mean they may have a reason not to go this path....like cam86 around the corner.

I'm keen to make a jump. I'll do the cam85m parts into a "cost" structure. I'll probably just leave the 0805 sized parts out as they are easily available. I'll Just look at prime costs items. I'll get back on this.
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Old 25-06-2016, 12:55 PM
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Brendan, I just saw cheap CXD1267ANs (or here) on ebay. Somehow I remembered them to be $25 each (on ebay) and not $5.

I will order 3 and see what I get...

Can you know if they are fake without soldering them first?

Last edited by luka; 25-06-2016 at 01:08 PM.
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