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  #21  
Old 24-08-2011, 09:41 AM
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Well that would make a complete mess of the electroweak theory which is based on the Higgs boson existing.

Regards

Steven

That it would....it means you're going to have to find another cause for inflation, for a start. Considering it was the supposed appearance of the Higgs which broke the EW symmetry and drove inflation, not having the Higgs will mean they'll have to find something else to explain inflation and why anything has mass, at all.

Maybe one of the Higgsless models??

Last edited by renormalised; 24-08-2011 at 10:00 AM.
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  #22  
Old 24-08-2011, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
That it would....it means you're going to have to find another cause for inflation, for a start. Considering it was the supposed appearance of the Higgs which broke the EW symmetry and drove inflation, not having the Higgs will mean they'll have to find something else to explain inflation and why anything has mass, at all.

Maybe one of the Higgsless models??
The EW theory has successively predicted neutral currents, and the W and Z bosons, all based on a Higgs mechanism for symmetry breaking.

If the Higgs mechanism is wrong, the theory has been able to fluke the predictions.

That is more incomprehensible than the theory itself, considered to be one of the most mathematically challenging theories around.

Regards

Steven
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  #23  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:04 AM
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Another article reflects that their data to establish HB has dropped from 2.8 sigma to 2 sigma. That means the odds of what they "see" being the real Higgs have fallen to 95%,... or 5% chance of being wrong???
That is hardley a close the file situation.
alex
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  #24  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
The EW theory has predicted neutral currents, and the W and Z bosons, all based on a Higgs mechanism for symmetry breaking.

If the Higgs mechanism is wrong, the theory has been able to fluke the predictions.

That is more incomprehensible than the theory itself, considered to be one of the most mathematically challenging theories around.

Regards

Steven
If it is a fluke, then it's an incredibly lucky one. But then again, sometimes a guess is as good as an experimentally expected prediction. Gotta give the guys a chance at pulling rabbits out of the hat sometimes
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  #25  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Another article reflects that their data to establish HB has dropped from 2.8 sigma to 2 sigma. That means the odds of what they "see" being the real Higgs have fallen to 95%,... or 5% chance of being wrong???
That is hardley a close the file situation.
alex
Still it's a worrying trend. Signals have disappeared at 4 sigma, as more data is added for analysis.

Regards

Steven
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  #26  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:16 AM
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If it is a fluke, then it's an incredibly lucky one. But then again, sometimes a guess is as good as an experimentally expected prediction. Gotta give the guys a chance at pulling rabbits out of the hat sometimes
It is highly unlikely.

If the Higgs mechanism is however shown not to exist then Messrs. Salam, Glashow and Weinberg, should hand back their Nobel Prizes they won in 1979 for the Electroweak theory.

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Steven
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  #27  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:21 AM
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Still it's a worrying trend. Signals have disappeared at 4 sigma, as more data is added for analysis.

Regards

Steven
Agreed Steven but not perhaps as worrying as some reporters suggest. One gets a feeling reading various reports they are about ready to close shop which is clearly not the case...

I bet they have found it but wont tell until their new employement contracts are finalized

alex
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  #28  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:31 AM
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It is highly unlikely.

If the Higgs mechanism is however shown not to exist then Messrs. Salam, Glashow and Weinberg, should hand back their Nobel Prizes they won in 1979 for the Electroweak theory.

Regards

Steven
Highly unlikely, but not out of the realms of possibility. Something I don't think having to hand back a Nobel Prize is called for. They didn't deliberately falsify their work or make any other misrepresentations. They may have the general premise of the EW Theory correct, just not the specifics in so far as the Higgs mechanism is concerned .
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  #29  
Old 24-08-2011, 10:41 AM
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Highly unlikely, but not out of the realms of possibility. Something I don't think having to hand back a Nobel Prize is called for. They didn't deliberately falsify their work or make any other misrepresentations. They may have the general premise of the EW Theory correct, just not the specifics in so far as the Higgs mechanism is concerned .
The theory is completely wrong if the Higgs mechanism doesn't exist.
The Electroweak theory is built on a Higgs mechanism for symmetry breaking.
The masses of the W and Z bosons could not be predicted without a Higgs mechanism.

Regards

Steven
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  #30  
Old 24-08-2011, 11:22 AM
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The theory is completely wrong if the Higgs mechanism doesn't exist.
The Electroweak theory is built on a Higgs mechanism for symmetry breaking.
The masses of the W and Z bosons could not be predicted without a Higgs mechanism.

Regards

Steven
As it stands, you're right. However there are a couple of ways of looking at this. Either the Higgs mechanism exists but they've gotten all the maths wrong for the expected energy level at which it appears. Or, it doesn't exist and they need a new EW Theory. There's even another way...there might be something in the Higgsless models which preserves EW Theory but does it without the Higgs. The mass of the W and Z bosons must be predictable in the Higgsless and Technicolor models, otherwise they wouldn't mesh with the Standard Model and it, itself, would be called into question as well.
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  #31  
Old 24-08-2011, 12:58 PM
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Does this also mean that Peter Higgs would have to change his family name and go into hiding?

How embarrassing it would be, to have one's name attached to something which gets debunked … expensively, also .. !

Cheers
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  #32  
Old 24-08-2011, 01:19 PM
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Does this also mean that Peter Higgs would have to change his family name and go into hiding?

How embarrassing it would be, to have one's name attached to something which gets debunked expensively, also .. !

Cheers
They'll make him pay for the interest on the bank loan they took out to fund the LHC
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