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Old 05-02-2015, 06:46 PM
Jemmo (Adrian)
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Can Pluto be seen through a scope

I own a 10" dob I do the expect to be able to see it but if you can see it what kind of scope are we talking about to be able to view it
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Old 05-02-2015, 08:55 PM
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mental4astro (Alexander)
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Adrian, sorry to say no. Not with your scope.

Pluto sits at magnitude 15. This is right on the limit of what a 10" scope can reveal visually. This means that magnitude 15 is just, just beyond what you would be able to detect.

AND, while Pluto is visible in larger instruments, it is not immediately identifiable, but can only be detected with a few days interval as it would be detected as a tiny star that has shifted position with respects to the other background stars. This is the way that Pluto was discovered, sure photographically, but as a star that had shifted position over the course of a few nights. It has no decernable disk - it literally appears like any other pin-prick faint star.

There are a handful of people here on IIS who have seen Pluto. Something that requires the patience of Saints. To identify Pluto requires highly detailed charts to assist with picking the 'odd man out' from the background stars. More fellows have photographed Pluto. This next link takes you to a search I did here on IIS of Pluto in the Solar System photo forum:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...archid=3284486



Alex.

Last edited by mental4astro; 05-02-2015 at 09:34 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 05-02-2015, 09:42 PM
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mental4astro (Alexander)
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Fellow IISer, AndyC, did an animation of Pluto over the course of a few nights. All I can say is 'Holy Crap'! 'This is what you need to identify, from such a busy field! Not a chance!'

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ighlight=pluto
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:44 PM
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Terry B
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I just looked it up and pluto is currently mag 14.2.
About 10 years ago it was at mag 13.8 and I hunted it down successfully with my VC200L. It was at the limit of the scope but could be seen with averted vision. You need dark skies and no moon.
With the 10" scope it would be a challenge.
I have imaged it quite easily with my CCD as a 14 mag star is pretty easy to image.
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:57 PM
Jemmo (Adrian)
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I thought as much. I will have a read on the links thanks guys I didn't think I'd be able to see it as I'm only new to this stuff and it is so bloody far away.
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:18 PM
Jemmo (Adrian)
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That andyc screen show was amazing. You can just see it so many stars and actually on a small scope. Must of been close. I am a noon so how does mag work as in. If Pluto is say mag 17 what's that mean is it you need to bump up the scopes magnification to x170. Sorry if a silly question but I want to learn more and see as much as I can
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:45 AM
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mental4astro (Alexander)
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The brightness of an astronomical unit is described as its 'magnitude', mag. for short. Magnitude is a logarithmic order of scale. All that means is it is not a geometric or linear relationship between magnitude one to magnitude two to magnitude three, etc. Roughly though, it means that magnitude 1 is 100X brighter than magnitude 6.

How does this affect what we see through the telescope? Well, you need to remember that a telescope collects light. The larger it is, the more it can collect, and in doing so it means that fainter and fainter objects can be seen as aperture increases. It has nothing to do with magnification, but, BUT, there are a few practical things that we can do using magnification to push things along to the limits of our instruments. This needs us to understand certain things about 'magnitude', our scopes, and atmospheric conditions.

I wrote 'magnitude' as it is not a straight forward thing to understand in astronomy. A star may be labeled as 'magnitude 8'. A galaxy may also be described as 'magnitude 8', but we can easily see the star, but not the galaxy! What's going one here??!!?? Thing is, extended objects, such as galaxies, nebulae, clusters, etc, have their magnitude determined as if the entire area of the object were put into a single point source, like a star. So that magnitude 8 galaxy apparently fainter than the star only because its light is spread out over an area.

The amount of light our telescopes can gather is determined by the size of the objective lens or primary mirror. Like I wrote earlier, the larger the aperture, the fainter the objects that can be seen. But it is not that simple either. Our very human eyes have a factor in this. The older we get, the smaller our pupils can dilate to. A 15 year old's pupils can dilate to 7mm. Me at over 40, closer to 6mm. This has an influence on how faint we can see. And only further complicating things, as we increase magnification, we reduce the size of the exit pupil coming through the eyepiece, meaning that once the exit pupil shrinks to below 6mm, I can now see things just as faint as that 15 year old.

Then there is the atmosphere. Thermal currents in the atmosphere will degrade the quality of the seeing. In turn, this reduces how faint we can see as more of that precious stellar light is scattered by the atmosphere than reaches our eyes.

Yes, a lot of material to digest here. And this is not all of it! There are other definitions that need to be understood, but can be covered later as one's experience increases, and not to confuse things even more. But it is helpful to know the theoretical limits of our scopes so we can plan viewing sessions and select targets. No use selecting a magnitude 15 object if the limiting magnitude of one's scope is mag 15. You just won't see it.

This following link will take you to a magnitude calculator into which you can put in your set of parameters. You will notice that the limiting magnitude will vary a little as certain parameters are changed - quality of optics, age of observer, magnification being use, aperture of telescope:

http://www.cruxis.com/scope/limitingmagnitude.htm

And for what it's worth, this last link will give a list of magnitude values for various objects, from the Sun through to camera limits:

http://www.icq.eps.harvard.edu/MagScale.html

Jemmo, to finish answering your question, if Pluto is at magnitude 17 (as an example), it will be totally invisible in a 10" scope visually.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:09 AM
Renato1 (Renato)
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Current magnitude of Pluto= 14.25
http://theskylive.com/pluto-tracker

Limiting magnitude of a 10" scope -
14.5 or 15.7
http://www.twcac.org/Tutorials/limit...tude_table.htm
or
15.1
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c...EW&classic=YES
or
15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_magnitude

If you are somewhere very dark, it is worth having a go if you have a decent finder chart. Just don't be too optimistic.
Regards,
Renato
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:36 AM
Jemmo (Adrian)
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Alexander thank you very much that was a huge help I have a list of objects I want to see and needed to understand what mag meant as it tells me what mag each one is thanks for all the great info
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:55 AM
Jemmo (Adrian)
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So what magnitude objects would be relatively easy for a nooby to find with my f5 10" dobsonian. Would mag 12 be easy enough
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  #11  
Old 06-02-2015, 11:17 AM
SkyWatch (Dean)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemmo View Post
So what magnitude objects would be relatively easy for a nooby to find with my f5 10" dobsonian. Would mag 12 be easy enough
If I was you I would be chasing the brighter DSO's to start with: bright globulars like 47 Tuc and Omega Cen, open clusters like IC2602 (Southern Pleiades) or the real Pleiades, nebulae like M42 (Orion) or Eta Carina, bright galaxies like Centaurus A and the Sombrero, or planetaries like the Ghost of Jupiter. Once you get the general idea and know what you are looking for and at, then you can start chasing fainter objects, like 9th Magnitude galaxies, and then go fainter again: there are many 1000's of DSO's visible in your scope!
12th Magnitude faint fuzzies will probably be visible (depending on how spread out they are), but often you will need averted vision, and they may be disappointing for a new star gazer: just a faint, tiny blob of light.

Work your way down to them!

All the best,

Dean
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:45 AM
Jemmo (Adrian)
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Thanks Dean tonight is meant to be amazing viewing so in taking the scope to a friends place who has a platform on his roof and lives on a hill. Hopefully I can tick some off my list
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:39 AM
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barx1963 (Malcolm)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemmo View Post
So what magnitude objects would be relatively easy for a nooby to find with my f5 10" dobsonian. Would mag 12 be easy enough
Magnitudes for DSOs are what are called integrated magnitudes. In other words they are an estimate of how bright a point source would be if it all the light from the extended object (the DSO) was concentrated in it. This is why you often hear observers talk about surface brightness. A mag 12 star is easy in a 10" scope, a mag 12 galaxy where the light may be spread over and area 5' x 2' is harder, a mag 12 nebula spread over 1 square degree of space is very faint and hard to pick up if there are no bright patches.

Malcolm
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