#1  
Old 24-11-2013, 05:26 AM
nebulosity.'s Avatar
nebulosity. (Jo)
Registered User

nebulosity. is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cecil Plains QLD
Posts: 1,225
Recommend me a Camera

G'day everyone,

I'm building an 8 inch F6 newt setup for a guy in Brisbane and he would like to do imaging with it, so my question is, what would be a good camera?
He has never done it before so there would be a bit of a learning curve.

My requirements are:

Suit an 8 inch F6 newt (1200m FL)

Be beginner friendly,

Take good images,

cost around the $1500 mark, (or more if you think so)

work on a Mac,

any else I can't think of.


So what do you reckon? I was thinking of something like a QHY8? or would it be better to go with a Mono camera?

I don't think I'll worry about DSLR's.

Thanks for any advice,
Jo

Last edited by nebulosity.; 24-11-2013 at 06:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24-11-2013, 06:44 AM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulosity. View Post
G'day everyone,

I'm building an 8 inch F6 newt setup for a guy in Brisbane and he would like to do imaging with it, so my question is, what would be a good camera?
He has never done it before so there would be a bit of a learning curve.

My requirements are:

Suit an 8 inch F6 newt (1200m FL)

Be beginner friendly,

Take good images,

cost around the $1500 mark, (or more if you think so)

work on a Mac,

any else I can't think of.


So what do you reckon? I was thinking of something like a QHY8? or would it be better to go with a Mono camera?

I don't think I'll worry about DSLR's.

Thanks for any advice,
Jo
Jo, don't write off DSLRs too fast. They make an economical way to introduce a newbie to imaging in general and processing in particular. We who have been doing this for a while all know that there is as much art in the latter as the former and it does take a fair bit of patient learning. Also, it must be stressed, no DSLR or CCD is going to overcome inadequate guiding. So the beginner must confront the need to buy and use a dedicated guide scope and camera - at extra expense in dollars and learning curve. With a DSLR as an introductory camera, the newbie can afford a QHY5 and an OAG as well as a decent Canon or Nikon as well and for less than the cost of a dedicated CCD. This may sound a bit patronising but with a QHY8/9/10 or some other dedicated CCD, the novice can't use it to take happy snaps of the cat after a night of imaging stars.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24-11-2013, 07:30 AM
acropolite's Avatar
acropolite (Phil)
Registered User

acropolite is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Launceston Tasmania
Posts: 8,988
I agree with Peters comments. The only issue with DSLR's is that they tend to be noisy at warmer temperatures if uncooled.

It would be worth considering one of the modified cooled DSLR options (I believe jjj uses one with excellent results) from Central DS either the CDS1100 or CDS600D, both are close to your wishlist price.

http://www.centralds.net/cam/?produc...led-eos-600d-2

You haven't mentioned a mount or any other associated hardware, 1200mm F/L is going to need good alignment, tracking and guiding. The newt will also need some sort of corrector (e.g. MPCC) to get decent images.

Last edited by acropolite; 24-11-2013 at 07:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24-11-2013, 07:39 AM
multiweb's Avatar
multiweb (Marc)
ze frogginator

multiweb is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hinchinbrook
Posts: 18,224
If you have a DSLR already I'd get a QHY9 mono. They're very good value.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24-11-2013, 08:28 AM
cometcatcher's Avatar
cometcatcher (Kevin)
<--- Comet Hale-Bopp

cometcatcher is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloudy Mackay
Posts: 6,125
If you're already building him a telescope, you could mod and cool a DSLR for him.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24-11-2013, 10:03 AM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cometcatcher View Post
If you're already building him a telescope, you could mod and cool a DSLR for him.
Or buy the one listed in the IIS classifieds right now.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24-11-2013, 12:34 PM
raymo
Registered User

raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: margaret river, western australia
Posts: 4,967
He could get a brand new 1100D with 18-55 lens for $328;see if he enjoys DSLR astroimaging, and if not, he can sell it. A cheap way to dip his foot in the DSLR water. If he likes it, he could get it modded later.
If he does not intend to do wide angle imaging, he can get one body only for under $300.
raymo
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 24-11-2013, 01:07 PM
alpal's Avatar
alpal
Registered User

alpal is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,826
Get what I got as I also have an 8" f6 Newt.
A QHY9 mono.

see link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2471943...in/photostream
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25-11-2013, 04:28 AM
nebulosity.'s Avatar
nebulosity. (Jo)
Registered User

nebulosity. is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cecil Plains QLD
Posts: 1,225
Thanks for all your comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrid View Post
Jo, don't write off DSLRs too fast. They make an economical way to introduce a newbie to imaging in general and processing in particular. We who have been doing this for a while all know that there is as much art in the latter as the former and it does take a fair bit of patient learning. Also, it must be stressed, no DSLR or CCD is going to overcome inadequate guiding. So the beginner must confront the need to buy and use a dedicated guide scope and camera - at extra expense in dollars and learning curve. With a DSLR as an introductory camera, the newbie can afford a QHY5 and an OAG as well as a decent Canon or Nikon as well and for less than the cost of a dedicated CCD. This may sound a bit patronising but with a QHY8/9/10 or some other dedicated CCD, the novice can't use it to take happy snaps of the cat after a night of imaging stars.
Peter
Peter,
DSLR's are great, I use them for all my imaging, but the thing is, money isn't really an problem for this guy so thats why I thought he could jump in the deep end with a CCD. I have extra money alloted for the guiding/mount etc. Of course I'll put it to him and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolite View Post
I agree with Peters comments. The only issue with DSLR's is that they tend to be noisy at warmer temperatures if uncooled.

It would be worth considering one of the modified cooled DSLR options (I believe jjj uses one with excellent results) from Central DS either the CDS1100 or CDS600D, both are close to your wishlist price.

http://www.centralds.net/cam/?produc...led-eos-600d-2

You haven't mentioned a mount or any other associated hardware, 1200mm F/L is going to need good alignment, tracking and guiding. The newt will also need some sort of corrector (e.g. MPCC) to get decent images.
As the price of a CDS cooled dslr is close to price of a 16 bit cooled QHY8 do you think dslr would be worth it?

As to the mount and guiding, I have ordered an iotron IEQ45 which has GPS to help out with the polar alignment, guiding is something I need to sort yet, know of any good guide cameras that work on a Mac? Something that could double as a planetary camera would be great.
Didn't think about having a corrector on a F6 newt would it really be that bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by multiweb View Post
If you have a DSLR already I'd get a QHY9 mono. They're very good value.
Will look into a QHY9, just not sure if a mono would be the best for a beginner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cometcatcher View Post
If you're already building him a telescope, you could mod and cool a DSLR for him.
Yes I could do that

Quote:
Originally Posted by raymo View Post
He could get a brand new 1100D with 18-55 lens for $328;see if he enjoys DSLR astroimaging, and if not, he can sell it. A cheap way to dip his foot in the DSLR water. If he likes it, he could get it modded later.
If he does not intend to do wide angle imaging, he can get one body only for under $300.
raymo
Thanks for the figures Raymo, will certainly put it towards him

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post
Get what I got as I also have an 8" f6 Newt.
A QHY9 mono.

see link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2471943...in/photostream
Aha, that looks interesting, what guide camera have you got there? and what size filters? Looks like a tempting setup. Have you got any pictures taken with it?
And do you use any form of corrector?

Thanks everyone
Jo

Last edited by nebulosity.; 25-11-2013 at 05:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25-11-2013, 08:43 AM
alpal's Avatar
alpal
Registered User

alpal is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,826
Jo,
Quote:
Aha, that looks interesting, what guide camera have you got there? and what size filters? Looks like a tempting setup.
Have you got any pictures taken with it?
And do you use any form of corrector?

Hi Jo,
Yes - all the information is there:

The guide camera is a Lodestar.
The photos taken with it are in my signature - Flickr photos.
The Corrector is an RCC, the OAG is a TS9 & the spacer is a Varilock.
The filters are a 2" type that came with the camera & are truly parfocal.
( I don't have to re-focus for filter changes- except for the Ha bought separately )

Mind you - the price for all that may be above your target budget.

cheers
Allan
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 27-11-2013, 12:51 AM
lurry
Registered User

lurry is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8
Canon 70D
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 27-11-2013, 12:52 AM
lurry
Registered User

lurry is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8
Read the review http://thedigitalcamera.net/canon-eos-70d-review/
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28-11-2013, 04:53 AM
nebulosity.'s Avatar
nebulosity. (Jo)
Registered User

nebulosity. is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cecil Plains QLD
Posts: 1,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post
Jo,



Hi Jo,
Yes - all the information is there:

The guide camera is a Lodestar.
The photos taken with it are in my signature - Flickr photos.
The Corrector is an RCC, the OAG is a TS9 & the spacer is a Varilock.
The filters are a 2" type that came with the camera & are truly parfocal.
( I don't have to re-focus for filter changes- except for the Ha bought separately )

Mind you - the price for all that may be above your target budget.

cheers
Allan
Wow, Allen you have some beautiful images there! Looks like you have this setup working very well, but as you say it's a bit above my budget
The CCD it self is quite reasonably priced but once you start thinking about filters it adds up quickly.
This brings me back to the DSLR question, it might be worth while to save money and build a mono 1100D with super cooling and then get a nice set of filters

I was thinking of taking a short cut and buying something already to go, doesn't look like that is going to happen

What do you think of the RCC? Is it needed? I thought at F6 you wouldn't need much correction

Cheers
Jo
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 28-11-2013, 04:54 AM
nebulosity.'s Avatar
nebulosity. (Jo)
Registered User

nebulosity. is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cecil Plains QLD
Posts: 1,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurry View Post
Canon 70D
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurry View Post
Thanks Lurry I'll have a read.

Jo
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 28-11-2013, 06:46 AM
alpal's Avatar
alpal
Registered User

alpal is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulosity. View Post
Wow, Allen you have some beautiful images there! Looks like you have this setup working very well, but as you say it's a bit above my budget
The CCD it self is quite reasonably priced but once you start thinking about filters it adds up quickly.
This brings me back to the DSLR question, it might be worth while to save money and build a mono 1100D with super cooling and then get a nice set of filters

I was thinking of taking a short cut and buying something already to go, doesn't look like that is going to happen

What do you think of the RCC? Is it needed? I thought at F6 you wouldn't need much correction

Cheers
Jo
Hi Jo,
To get good images you just have to pay the money.
I also had to buy quality - Parallax tube rings - to get good guiding.
The RCC is essential because it allows enough back focus
to fit all the image train & otherwise the stars are elongated in the corners.
The OAG and Lodestar are essential too because otherwise differential flexure
caused trailed stars.
The Varilock adjustable spacer was essential to get the right length
between the RCC & the sensor chip.
I also had to have the mount upgraded & the backlash adjusted out of it.

All that took many years of trial and error to come up with a working reliable system.
The whole story is there in my flickr photos.

I personally think that modifying a DSLR is not worth it.
You end up wrecking a nice camera.


The cheapest way would be to buy an already modified DSLR at a good price.
These pop up now & again on Astromart & here in the classified section.

I made the decision that unless I could get perfect guiding on long subframes
that I would stick with an unmodified DSLR.
Once I did that I jumped at a CCD & actually found it easier to use than a DSLR.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-12-2013, 06:31 AM
nebulosity.'s Avatar
nebulosity. (Jo)
Registered User

nebulosity. is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cecil Plains QLD
Posts: 1,225
Thanks for the info Allen, it's looking like the DSLR might be the go after all
I have no worries about modding them, I have done a lot of extreme mods to DSLR's

So it pretty much comes down to:

QHY8L,

Canon APS-C cameras (450D,40D,1100D etc..)

Or if I go 2nd hand (no problem as I'll be modding anyway) I could go with a low noise FF camera like the 5D or 6D. These have the advantage of being great for nightscapes and such as well.


I'm sure the QHY8L would be able to walk over the Canon APS cameras without cooling, but what about a modded 6D? I'm guessing it would make a pretty impressive astro camera, great QE as well.

What do you reckon? Of cause it looks like I'd have to use some sort of corrector, thinking about a Baader MPCC, or RCC, or the SW 0.9 Coma Corrector.

Cheers
Jo
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:54 PM
2stroke's Avatar
2stroke (Jay)
The devil's advocate

2stroke is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 816
Get a qhy8L or a qhy9 mono and get on the ccd train. I would go a mono qhy9 now after using the osc just because you loose detail with a Bayer matrix also cal is less troublesome. The CDS-1100D is one hell of a nice dslr though but the shutter life worry's me and the sensor being cmos has it draw backs, but all in all its a dam fine cam and offers some mp's.

People over look bias readout noise with dslr's as well and that is the main killer on faint targets, put thermal noise on top which isnt linear unlike a ccd and it gets worse. There's a reason why you don't see dedicated high-end astro cams using cmos sensors. I would not mod a 6d because i have destroyed 3 1100d's already with mods, i got lucky with the first and the rest ended up badly. It's up to you though could end up in tears, unlike cheaper cams which only cost a few hundred bucks.

Why the hell you would buy a $1500 dslr for prime focus astro work is beyond me, its like buying a hammer to cut wood besides CDS dslr's ect which arn't going to be taking family pics with. Anyhow the qhy8l is a great cam to break into the ccd world with, they have improved read noise by pushing the board back from cooler and tec over the qhy8 as well. Anyhow on your budget the qhy8l makes perfect sense, I have a starshoot pro v2 the same chip and it gives nice results apart from readout noise which i am resolving atm. Take a bais from your dslr and subtract a stack of bias averaged from that and see what you end up with

heres a pic of my readout noise with the cooler off with bais - bais avg theres only about 5 pixels in the whole read-out reading anything.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (bais noise.jpg)
134.9 KB28 views

Last edited by 2stroke; 07-12-2013 at 12:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-12-2013, 05:01 AM
nebulosity.'s Avatar
nebulosity. (Jo)
Registered User

nebulosity. is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cecil Plains QLD
Posts: 1,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2stroke View Post
Get a qhy8L or a qhy9 mono and get on the ccd train. I would go a mono qhy9 now after using the osc just because you loose detail with a Bayer matrix also cal is less troublesome. The CDS-1100D is one hell of a nice dslr though but the shutter life worry's me and the sensor being cmos has it draw backs, but all in all its a dam fine cam and offers some mp's.

People over look bias readout noise with dslr's as well and that is the main killer on faint targets, put thermal noise on top which isnt linear unlike a ccd and it gets worse. There's a reason why you don't see dedicated high-end astro cams using cmos sensors. I would not mod a 6d because i have destroyed 3 1100d's already with mods, i got lucky with the first and the rest ended up badly. It's up to you though could end up in tears, unlike cheaper cams which only cost a few hundred bucks.

Why the hell you would buy a $1500 dslr for prime focus astro work is beyond me, its like buying a hammer to cut wood besides CDS dslr's ect which arn't going to be taking family pics with. Anyhow the qhy8l is a great cam to break into the ccd world with, they have improved read noise by pushing the board back from cooler and tec over the qhy8 as well. Anyhow on your budget the qhy8l makes perfect sense, I have a starshoot pro v2 the same chip and it gives nice results apart from readout noise which i am resolving atm. Take a bais from your dslr and subtract a stack of bias averaged from that and see what you end up with

heres a pic of my readout noise with the cooler off with bais - bais avg theres only about 5 pixels in the whole read-out reading anything.
Thanks a lot for clearing this up Jay, I can now see that the QHY8L is certainly the way to go

I look forward to getting one and jumping into imaging proper

Thanks again everyone,

Jo
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 10:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Meade Australia
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
NexDome Observatories
Advertisement
SkyWatcher Australia
Advertisement
Celestron Australia
Advertisement
Lunatico Astronomical
Advertisement
OzScopes Authorised Dealer
Advertisement
Astronomy and Electronics Centre
Advertisement