Sentient life elsewhere in the Milky Way

[Eden (Brett)]

I'm interested to hear what the general consensus is among forum members regarding the likelihood of sentient life elsewhere in the Milky Way -- disregarding, for the moment, other galaxies outside of our own.

I feel that the ideas planted in our minds by the likes of Star Trek and so forth make it difficult to approach this topic objectively. The Drake Equation is a novel approach but in this relatively early stage of our exploration of space we have little choice but to populate some of its variables with numbers which are practically arbitrary in their usefulness.

Looking at the ever-increasing number of exoplanetary discoveries and the huge scope by which they vary, I am personally inclined to believe that the question should not so much be a matter of whether there is sentient life out there but rather where that life is. The Kepler mission has only barely scraped the surface, given it's highly limited ability to detect extrasolar planets.

I am keen to hear what other forum members have to say on this subject.

Cheers,
Brett

[sheeny (Al)]

I think life could be quite bountiful. Sentient life probably reasonably rare though and technological life forms who we think of like ourselves, extremely rare.

Al.

[julianh72 (Julian)]

I think it's a near-certainty that sentient life is out there (and plentiful), and it's possible that we may even receive signals from a distant civilisation on an exoplanet one day, but carrying on a conversation may be difficult with any civilisation that is more than a few light years from Earth.

Recent evidence shows that stars with one or more planets are the norm rather than the exception, and planets in the "habitable zone" are proving to be quite common. We are also expanding our ideas about how big the "habitable zone" is - e.g. not very long ago, the Earth was the only planet in our solar system that was considered to be in the habitable zone, but we now know that Europa and Enceladus have oceans of liquid water. This means that there are literally hundreds of billions of planets or moons in the Milky Way alone which lie within the habitable zone as we currently understand it, and there are of course hundreds of billions of galaxies in the observable universe.

As for the Drake Equation - with so many candidate planets and moons, regardless of how low you rate the probability of life forming on any given planet, and how low you rate the probability of life evolving to some sort of sentient civilisation, that still suggests millions of candidate planets in our Milky Way - all we have to do is find them!

[OzStarGazer]

I am glad somebody asked. I have been thinking of asking this question for quite a while now.
Yes, I think that there is sentient life out there too. We are so small. It would be a terrible waste of space if only our planet were inhabited!
I wish we will know more before I die because I have always been interested!

[avandonk]

Get over it folks most of the Universe is very nasty to soft fleshy things like us.

In an infinite Universe that is one of many infinite Universes all that is possible has happened and is happening and will happen again and again ad infinitum!

Just enjoy the short time you have to mostly bicker with your fellow simians. Try not to throw too much of your own excrement at others.

Bert

[Peter Ward]

And now a reading from the Book of Python....

"The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, the speed of light, you know
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth"

[AG Hybrid (Adrian)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Get over it folks most of the Universe is very nasty to soft fleshy things like us.
Bert

Can't disagree with this point of view at all. Life is so fragile. How many aspects have fallen into place to get to where we are now?

So many things can go wrong and have gone wrong.

A comet killing the dinosaurs allowed mammals and the only technological life we know develop. And that took 65 million years. In the scheme of things that's not very long. But, really 65 million years is a long time between mass extinctions. How lucky we have been not to cop another comet or a nearby supernova/GRB. Hell the Oort Cloud is supposed to have nearly a trillion comet hanging out there. Just lying there in wait to get a gravitational nudge towards the inner planets.

I'm not saying there is no intelligent life in our galaxy. Just don't expect the intergalactic senate from Star Wars.

Another point. If I was part of a technologically advanced race and I observed the Human race, how we treat each other and our planet. I probably wouldn't stop for a chat.

[5ash (Philip)]

[QUOTE=sheeny;1092477]I think life could be quite bountiful. Sentient life probably reasonably rare though and technological life forms who we think of like ourselves, extremely rare.

I've always thought this point of view held by a number of theorists is the most sensible one , after all even if life does flourish all over the universe as it probably does , evolution to sentient life capable of developing complex technology is not so likely . Even here on earth some groups of humans reached levels of technology that failed to change for thousands of years before intervention from groups with more advanced technology , perhaps they would not have changed if left?
Philip

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by sheeny

I think life could be quite bountiful. Sentient life probably reasonably rare though and technological life forms who we think of like ourselves, extremely rare.

Al.

Thank gawd for that!!!

[sheeny (Al)]

[QUOTE=5ash;1092615]

Originally Posted by sheeny

I think life could be quite bountiful. Sentient life probably reasonably rare though and technological life forms who we think of like ourselves, extremely rare.

I've always thought this point of view held by a number of theorists is the most sensible one , after all even if life does flourish all over the universe as it probably does , evolution to sentient life capable of developing complex technology is not so likely . Even here on earth some groups of humans reached levels of technology that failed to change for thousands of years before intervention from groups with more advanced technology , perhaps they would not have changed if left?
Philip

Exactly my point. How many sustainable cultures (don't even consider species) have been destroyed by our particular special case of insanity? Exponential growth as a basis for a culture on a finite planet? It can only work if you intend to move on... and that's not so easy.

Intelligence? There's plenty of intelligent individuals, but collectively I have to agree with the Monty Python quote of Peter's.

Al.

[JB80 (Jarrod)]

Originally Posted by AG Hybrid

Another point. If I was part of a technologically advanced race and I observed the Human race, how we treat each other and our planet. I probably wouldn't stop for a chat.

Reminds me of this little gem........

THEY'RE MADE OUT OF MEAT


"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any idea what's the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

"So ... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."

"Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat."

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."

"And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone ..."

http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html

[redbeard (Damien)]

"I think life could be quite bountiful. Sentient life probably reasonably rare though and technological life forms who we think of like ourselves, extremely rare.

Al. "
And
THEY'RE MADE OUT OF MEAT


"They're made out of meat.".......
JB80

Both are gold.

What I sometimes think on this topic, and the words in the two above quotes, roughly sum it up.


Try this:
Imagine that we ARE the only beings such as us or anything similar, (life as we know it in general), and think from time to time over about a week about what we might search for that is not life as we know it.

After a week, it would be curious to see how we looked at our universe knowing that we are the only ones in here and what would be the alternate priority search! We could meet at pubs to discuss results for several hours and go home happy.
　
Yep, too much wine tonight!

[Eden (Brett)]

I'm glad to see some input on this, some very good points raised too I might add.

Although I've always been highly sceptical towards the whole idea of one day receiving some sort of transmission from another life-form elsewhere in the galaxy (or the universe for that matter), Julian hit the nail on the head in his summary of the situation as it stands at this stage in our evolution.

I'm not certain of the source, but the "very conservative" estimate of the minimum number of exoplanets in the observable universe is believed to be somewhere around 50 sextillion (50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ).

Considering most people have difficulty digesting numbers that exceed the scale of billions and struggle to get their head around the distances expressed by light-year units (which becomes incrementally worse when we start talking about other galaxies which are millions or billions of light years from Earth), if this is indeed a value which falls short of the very least number of other planets out there, surely one could rationally say that there must be another planet aside our own which harbours intelligent life?

I think it would be unreasonable to expect millions of planets out there in the universe with bipedal hominid lifeforms, but I do not think that a solar system like our own is as rare as we might be lead to believe or have believed in the past. To expect to hear from those intelligent life forms which do exist, at least in our lifetime, is asking for a lot and a two-way conversation is completely out of the question. It's all about the distances...the very same reason behind why they don't come visiting.

Even if Earth depended -- absolutely depended -- on our moon to stir the primordial muck pond from which we crawled, even if Earth or any other planet from which life could spring, HAD to be a certain distance from it's host star in order for that life to come into being, I don't think either of these pre-requisites (which are probably two of, if not the two, most important) could even be classed as rare or unusual. Stars of various temperatures, exoplanets with water and who knows how many other elements and moons orbiting them a certainty, you've got most of the ingredients right there already.

As for the value of life and it's fragility, the universe is a very dangerous place and as history has shown, all it would take is for an asteroid or similar body to collide with an inhabited planet or a freak solar event for the whole house of cards to come crashing down.

The vast distances of space will probably be the single most difficult endeavour that humanity will ever have to overcome, if we do continue to thrive as a species and successfully prevent ourselves from destroying this planet. If we wish to thrive as a species, it's paramount that we do overcome it because the Earth and its resources will not sustain us forever, no matter how careful, conservative or energy efficient we might choose to be.

[xelasnave]

Pity the money spent on proving GR some 10 billion approx to date could not have gone to looking for life in our solar system. The search for life should be of higher prioity than proving something which seems pretty strong to start with. I dont know where I got the figure from so I am happy to be corrected as to GR investment to date.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Will other life have the same DNA system and will there be any relationships to be drawn ..I would love to see missions find something befote I leave this planet. Alex

[Peter Ward]

WTF is GR?

[xelasnave]

Sorry for using intitals to refer to General Relativity.
My point again is that proving General Relativity although important is perhaps less so when the importance of finding the simplest of life forms in our solar system. For example the hunt for gravity waves if unsuccessful will not faulsify General Relativity and scientists will conclude the theory holds but our gear is not up to finding gra ity waves which they will still assume to be a reality. Same for Gravity B Probe the theory predicts it and not finding evidence of frame dragging would not faulsify General Relativity. So given General Relativity long list of proofs why continue to prove it right. I would rather pend funds to find a single cell life form than find a gravity wave which is reasonably expected to be found. Just think finding or not finding simple life will do for us.

[avandonk]

Dust that sings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nnwvoH-4XI

Bert

[doppler (Rick)]

If there is life out there and there is a god of the universe then the distance between is gods quarantine. And we must remember that nothing is real everything is just a theory.

[glend (Glen)]

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. It is not the ability to reason. It is fairly likely that sentient life can be found in the Milky Way arm. The ability to think (reason) seems to be much harder to find, judging by its rarity here on earth.