Orion XX12 Price

[mic_m (Michael)]

My basic question is fairly simple; why is the Orion line of dobsonians, including but not limited to the XX12, so highly priced in Australia?

I am basing my contention about the price being high on the following comparisons:

GSO solid tube - $999 (Andrews)
SW Flextube - $1399 (Andrews)
Lightbridge - $1399 (Bintel)

XX12 - $3000 (e.g. Astro Optical, but it is the same at others too)

In the US the pricing is more comparable between the brands (all prices are from telescopes.com and Orion):

GSO solid tube (Zhumall) – US$799
SW Flextube - US$995
Lightbridge - US$899

XX12 – US$1299

Note how most of the prices in AU$ compare favourably with the US$ prices, except the XX12. Doing the conversion; US$(1299/0.80) = AU$1623. Where does the remaining AU$1,300 come form?

The difference can’t be due to the Intelescope; that is included as a part of the converted price of the XX12 scope package and it only costs US$170.

What about shipping and tariffs? I assume that this is the likely cause – but I’m not sure how this accounts for the $1,300 difference between the converted US price and the Australian sale price, or the AU$1600 difference between the XX12 and the LB which are both shipped to Australia from overseas.

I really like the XX12; it has several of the plusses of both the SW and the GSO made dobs, but less of the compromises. I would like this scope, but at AU$3000 it is unjustifiably expensive, at least without knowing exactly what I’m paying for or why I am paying it.

Oh, by the way, I asked Orion the same question, but they weren’t sure why their dobs were so expensive in Australia as pricing is based on dealer discretion. I know that dealers set prices based on external forces, but I can’t identify exactly what has resulted in the XX12 price premium above comparable scopes.

Cheers.

[astronut (John)]

Michael,
My thoughts are: simply lack of competition due to a small demand for the scope.
Bintel lowered their price on the XX12 from $3199 to $2599 recently, though I noticed that it has just been removed from the website (maybe sold out)
Though I have to ask Bintel are selling the Skywatcher 12" Flexitube for $2099 and Andrews are selling it for $1399!!
The only difference is the colour!!

[stephenb (Stephen)]

My only guess (and it is a wild guess), is that they do not keep them in stock and maybe they only order them in as required, thus the shipping is higher??

I agree, from the ads it look like a nice scope.

[Calibos (Keith)]

Do all the rest ship to OZ straight from GSO and Synta in Asia where maybe the Orions ship from Asia to the USA before being Shipped back to the Asia/Pacific region??

[mic_m (Michael)]

Thanks for your responses.

Originally Posted by astronut

Michael,
My thoughts are: simply lack of competition due to a small demand for the scope.
Bintel lowered their price on the XX12 from $3199 to $2599 recently, though I noticed that it has just been removed from the website (maybe sold out)
Though I have to ask Bintel are selling the Skywatcher 12" Flexitube for $2099 and Andrews are selling it for $1399!!
The only difference is the colour!!

I agree that the lack of competition may play a part, especially given that Andrews who generally sells astro stuff pretty cheaply does not sell Orion scopes. In terms of the price variation you highlighted; the variation among Australian astronomy shops in the price of exactly the same equipment is pretty amazing, though my guess is that much of this is likely the result of exchange rate movements between the times of stock purchases which can’t be helped. Regardless of the cause though, the lack of piece stability even within one store undermines consumer confidence (at lest it does mine), and in terms of my op the price variability in astro gear in Australia doesn’t make solving my original question any easier.

I did speak to Bintel and Sirius (both of whose staff are always very helpful and informative) about the XX12 when it was ~AU$2600, but even AU$1000 above the converted US$ piece seems a lot when you consider the following:

If the LB is US$899 than when AU$1 = US$0.80, the LB = US$(899/0.80) = AU$1123.75. In Australia the LB sells for AU$1399, which is ~AU$275 above the converted US price. I assume that this AU$275 is a result of shipping costs which is very reasonable. So in comparison the AU$1000 odd for the XX12 above the converted US$ price seems to be a lot.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

My only guess (and it is a wild guess), is that they do not keep them in stock and maybe they only order them in as required, thus the shipping is higher??

I agree, from the ads it look like a nice scope.

Good suggestion. I’m sure that this plays a part, but how much of a part is not clear. Perhaps Orion dealers need to increase their economies of scale in importing these dobs.

They sure do appear to be good scopes. I prefer the rigidity of an 8 truss support system to others on offer (especially in the low end scopes), plus the traditional 8 pole design is far easier to attach a shroud to than parallel struts or a 6 pole truss system. It also has a great primary cell and Synta optics like the SW, as well as a fan and a two speed focuser like the Lightbridge and GSO solid tube dobs; finally it has push to system which may come in handy if one is trying to find something more obscure. Also very few modifications if any are reported to be need to have a functional scope out of the box which I really appreciate. It’s definitely the best budget dob available as far as I can tell, the only problem is that it is not a budget dob in Australia!

Originally Posted by Calibos

Do all the rest ship to OZ straight from GSO and Synta in Asia where maybe the Orions ship from Asia to the USA before being Shipped back to the Asia/Pacific region??

Good insight - as I understand it all Orion dobs are indeed shipped to Australia from the US which would likely result in a higher price than if they were shipped directly form Asia. I'm sure that the SW and the GSO dobs come directly from Asia but what about Meade dobs; do they go to the US first or do they come straight form Asia too? If Meade (a US company like Orion) can achieve a reasonable price for their product in Australia than why can’t Orion? Why do the Orion dobs need to go to the US first? Even if the bases for example, are made in the US, surly the OTA could come to Australia directly form the manufacturer in Asia and the bases shipped separately form the US; this would reduce the cost of these scopes if this is the case.

[MJ_ (Matt)]

How do you know the price from astro optical from their website? I only see a price band not an actual amount. I dont see a price for accessories either, I find this a bit annoying when shopping around as its not convenient especially when i can see the exact prices on other astro websites.

[GrahamL]

There may be a third party involved between orion and the retailer
either way we can all shop around

All those scopes are probably pretty similar to look through and all
despite the space savings on the truss types still have a very large
and ungainly base.

while there are some nice assemble yourself kits around , the pricepoint of them was always well above the dirt cheap dobs .. maybe worth another look at the dollar price of some of these scopes .

[astronut (John)]

All the GSO and Lightbridge scopes come straight from the factory, avoiding the U.S

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Originally Posted by MJ_

How do you know the price from astro optical from their website? I only see a price band not an actual amount. I dont see a price for accessories either, I find this a bit annoying when shopping around as its not convenient especially when i can see the exact prices on other astro websites.

I have a big issue with any dealer who trades with a website offering "price bands". Either you give me a current price, or don't bother selling on the internet. If you have the business sense to operate a retail store as a shopfront and online in this day and age, you should have the knowledge behind you to provide current prices and alter prices and stock on a website yourself as the need arises. No excuses here, I'm sorry.

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by MJ_

How do you know the price from astro optical from their website? I only see a price band not an actual amount. I dont see a price for accessories either, I find this a bit annoying when shopping around as its not convenient especially when i can see the exact prices on other astro websites.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

I have a big issue with any dealer who trades with a website offering "price bands". Either you give me a current price, or don't bother selling on the internet. If you have the business sense to operate a retail store as a shopfront and online in this day and age, you should have the knowledge behind you to provide current prices and alter prices and stock on a website yourself as the need arises. No excuses here, I'm sorry.

You are correct; you don’t know the exact price if you are internet shopping, you would need to call up Astro Optical to get the exact price. I find the practice of using price bands annoying too, however I mentioned Astro Optical because they are the only astro shop with this dob currently on their website, and their price band demonstrates my point about the high price of Orion dobs in Australia. I simply chose the lower bound of the band as it is more consistent with what other Orion dealers have offered in the past, but who knows; with a band between $3000 and $5000 it may be closer to $5000 for an XX12!

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Originally Posted by mic_m

You are correct; you don’t know the exact price if you are internet shopping, you would need to call up Astro Optical to get the exact price. I find the practice of using price bands annoying too, however I mentioned Astro Optical because they are the only astro shop with this dob currently on their website, and their price band demonstrates my point about the high price of Orion dobs in Australia. I simply chose the lower bound of the band as it is more consistent with what other Orion dealers have offered in the past, but who knows; with a band between $3000 and $5000 it may be closer to $5000 for an XX12!

Yep, fully understand Mic, you can only use the lower part of the price bracket as the best example, given the information available.

[bobson (Bob)]

Michael

Try calling http://www.btow.com.au/ here in Perth. They are selling Orion too but by order only, so you will not see it on their web, but I know for fact that they sell them. They freight anywhere in Australia.
Who knows, maybe he's got better price. Tell him AGWA member Bob told you about this.

cheers

bob

[JethroB76 (Jeff)]

The Orion intelliscopes have always been a massive rip off in Oz; buy yourself a GSO dob and put an Argo Navis on it and be happy and in front $-wise

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by bobson

Michael

Try calling http://www.btow.com.au/ here in Perth. They are selling Orion too but by order only, so you will not see it on their web, but I know for fact that they sell them. They freight anywhere in Australia.
Who knows, maybe he's got better price. Tell him AGWA member Bob told you about this.

cheers

bob

Thanks for the link Bob; from looking at their site I also noticed that they have an email address too, so I will certainly get in contact with them asap one way or another. From the Orion website only three dealers were listed; Sirius Optics, Bintel and Astro Optical, so it is great to know that there are other places where this scope is available, hopefully for a bit less.

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by JethroB76

The Orion intelliscopes have always been a massive rip off in Oz; buy yourself a GSO dob and put an Argo Navis on it and be happy and in front $-wise

I totally agree with the rip off comment about Orion dobs is Australia; hence the reason for beginning this thread.

My only issue with the GSO made dobs is the amount of modifications that are needed to get them up to where they should be directly form the manufacturer; otherwise they are a fantastic scope and I would already have one. I particularly like the two speed focuser on the GSO, from the samples I have had access to at my club it is very nice indeed and after using it I would be reluctant to get a scope without one now. But when I consider the frustration that some have reported in trying to fix their NEW scope and the opportunity cost of ones time that this often represents the GSO dob is just not an option. If the SW (which appears to need less mods) had something better than the parallel poles between the UTA and LTA I would consider getting one of those. However, given most other dobs now have a two speed focuser and a fan the SW lags behind in its features even though it sells for a higher price, which is a further deterent in getting one of these.

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

There may be a third party involved between orion and the retailer
either way we can all shop around

All those scopes are probably pretty similar to look through and all
despite the space savings on the truss types still have a very large
and ungainly base.

while there are some nice assemble yourself kits around , the pricepoint of them was always well above the dirt cheap dobs .. maybe worth another look at the dollar price of some of these scopes .

Thanks for your input. I have had a look at some of the kit scopes as well as companies such as Discovery US and Orion in the UK; however, like Orion US they all come form overseas and the shipping from these locations to Australia quite expensive. So the aggregate cost is really no different then buying a complete Orion and is often more; though the bases are much smaller for an equivalent size.

The budget dobs from Asia are the extent of what I feel comfortable in spending my money on; its just a shame that the Orion XX12, which seems to be the best budget dob available, is not sold here for reasonable a price. I don’t expect these scopes to be given away, but I would expect that they are more comparable in price to their sister scopes that come off the same production line.

[mic_m (Michael)]

I think a lot of good points have been made in this thread about the price of the Orion dobs. The things that stand out for me as contributing to the cost from what others have said here are the following:

- Lack of domestic competition
- Lack of economies of scale in shipping costs
- The Orion dobs travel to the US before coming to Australia, whereas other budget dobs ship directly form their manufacturer in Asia.
- Possible third party (intermediary) involvement between Orion and their Australian domestic retailers.

The cumulative effect of these factors, I imagine, leads to the high price of these scopes in Australia.

I thought that I would add that it is interesting that Orion spends money advertising the XX12 in AS&T which implies that they want them to sell well over here; however, I think that they really need to find a way to reduce the price if they want these scopes to have a chance against their competitors in Australia.

[norm]

I have a big issue with any dealer who trades with a website offering "price bands". Either you give me a current price, or don't bother selling on the internet. If you have the business sense to operate a retail store as a shopfront and online in this day and age, you should have the knowledge behind you to provide current prices and alter prices and stock on a website yourself as the need arises. No excuses here, I'm sorry.

I agree to the above. I find it so annoying. That said, they have been in business (Crows Nest) for yonks, so they must be doing something right.

As for the cost difference, I think the Orion uses pyrex for there mirror blanks. Whether that justifies the price hike is another thing.

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by norm

I agree to the above. I find it so annoying. That said, they have been in business (Crows Nest) for yonks, so they must be doing something right.

As for the cost difference, I think the Orion uses pyrex for there mirror blanks. Whether that justifies the price hike is another thing.

A really good thought about the Pyrex and this used to be the case, but not anymore; the Orion XX12 now uses “low thermal expansion glass” like the SW dobs; click on the XX12 product link here, then scroll down and click on specs. It’s my guess that an Orion mirror is therefore no different in any respect form a SW mirror and consequently the mirror material can not contribute to the price premium of Orion dobs.

[netwolf]

Are the orion scopes brought in via a Expertvision? I thought Orion's are essentially rebadged Synta/GSO scopes. If Synta then i think Expertvision are there distributor here. And most things through this distributor seem to have a considerable price diffrence between here and US. If there are retailers who can get around this third party in the middle perhaps the price could be lowered. The usual reason given are the distributro must maintain local waranty service etc etc hence the price diffrence.