Good All Rounder For Dad And Daughter

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Hi All
Firstly let me apologise for asking a question that I know has been asked a thousand times before. I am really confused and all the research I have done so far (both with Google and this and other forums) only confuses me more and I just trying to get as many opinions as possible.

I am looking to buy a first (2nd) telescope that dad (me) and 5yo daughter can use.

First a bit of history, I own a cheap reflector with a horrible alt-az mount that was a nightmare to use. I have managed to find some of the gas giants but thats about as good as I got. The mount made it very difficult to point the scope in the right direction and it felt like I was constantly wresting with it, and the image would vibrate for around 15 seconds after is was touched/bumped. Because of this I didn't use it much.

What I am after is a telescope which I can use to view the moon's details up to nebulae and galaxys later on. I would like something that will give a bit of detail in the planets and not just a shape (Saturn) and a series of dots (Jupiter). I also want something I can use for photography a bit later on (I own a Canon 7D). I'd also like to be able to track things a bit closer to home like ISS but I think I might be dreaming on that one, from what I have read a few of the forum members have done it. I want to spend max $800.

I have come to the conclusion I want a reflector on a equatorial mount so I can easily track objects while the eyepeice is being shared, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

• I was hoping for a computerised mount but have read they are complicated to set up, is it actually difficult? Or is it more "I'm a consumer and don't read manuals and it wont work out of the box and I'm too impatient/lazy to work it out so I'm returning it" difficult? Also does my price range mean any computer mount I get will mean poor quality telescope?

• What if I settled for a motorised mount, can I upgrade that to a comuterised mount at a later date at a acceptable price (around $400)
• What are the good brands (i.e not toys) I should be aiming for?
• With the lack of specialised telescope/optics bricks and mortar shops (and the ones that do exist are too far and are not open when I'm able to visit) I will be forced to buy online. Which online store can I call up and talk to an honest knowledgeable salesman about their range? I'm happy to pay a bit extra for decent service and prefer an Australian online store with Autstralian stock. I visited an Australian Geographic shop today and I was not happy with the teenage store attendant knowledge to say the least, and it seemed to me they just sold overpriced toys (infact I think thats where the one I own now came from)

If you have read this far thank you, and I appreciate any advice you can offer.

[dannat (Daniel)]

i don't think you'll be able to get a computersied mount for 800, even a basic eq3 mount without drives costs 300-400;
for the time being it may be best to settle for either a newtonian reflector (either tube only or dobsonian mount) or a small refractor (e.g.secondhand ed80)
the ed80 will be upgradeable to a good mount later for photography
for the time being a good photo tripod with fluid head will support the OTA

I'm sure you'll get lots of recommendations for a dobsonian -i myself don't prefer this type of telescope -but refractors are more expensive & the lens is also smaller, making objects dimmer
andrewscomm & bintel are the 2 sydney shops you should look into

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Isnt a dobsonian the table type mounts. they seem a bit impractical to me with having to cart a table out to do any viewing? Or have I missed something? Oh and can they easily track objects (i.e with the turning of one knob)?

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Was having a look at this one and was thinking if a motor mount can be $360, something costing a bit more with just a motor mount would be much better quality no??

[raymo]

The simple answer is that you can't get exactly what you want [new] for
$800. No one scope in that price range [new] will do everything you want. You can either buy something that will do what you want [ used ]for around that price, or spend more for a new one, or compromise and get a scope that will do most of what you want for 800.
Firstly, there is no lack of bricks and mortar astro shops. As stated by Dannat, Bintel and Andrews are local for you, and there are quite a few others dotted around the country. They are all knowledgeable, and will
freight if necessary. MUCH better to be able to talk to your supplier in
the event of problems, or when you want advice on accessories etc:
An example of a good scope for you is the Celestron 127SLT. After a bit
of practice, it will find and track objects for you. This type of scope is
however only suitable for basic photography.
Only very small Dobsonians sit on a table; for most you need a chair.
For a simple motorised [non computerised] scope to track using
only one control, it needs to be fairly well polar aligned, which takes
a little time to do.
raymo

[Regulus (Trevor)]

Not this one Con. That mount is as wobbly as any I have tried. Impossible to get a blur free photo on it I found (ES600D) since a bit of wind sets it off.
I think this is worth a look for a computerised scope.
Same telescope but an Alt-Az rather than EQ mount
http://www.ozscopes.com.au/reflector...r-130-slt.html
Celestrons online brochure:
http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop...ized-telescope

You can still get reasonable deep sky objects on the camera if you limit the exp time and do some stacking. JJJnette on IIS has been successful with here iOptron Alt-Az. Certainly you can get solar system objects easily with it.
Hope this helps
Trevor

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Thought that Celestron was a bit too cheap, is it me or are the celestrons the toys I'm trying to avoid?

How about this one, with a set of eye pieces will fall into my price range.

Due to my past bad experience I want the mount to be as good quality, if not better that the telescope. I am happy to settle for a manual eq mount as long as its good, I can then upgrade to a motor or computerised mount when I buy what ever it is I need to start astrophotography later on.

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Originally Posted by raymo

The simple answer is that you can't get exactly what you want [new] for
$800. No one scope in that price range [new] will do everything you want. You can either buy something that will do what you want [ used ]for around that price, or spend more for a new one, or compromise and get a scope that will do most of what you want for 800.

When you say I can't get what I want for $800 what do you mean exactly? Do you mean I won't get a motor or computer mount, or I won't get a scope that can handle the range of objects I wish to observe? I am perfectly happy with a manual mount as long as it's an eq mount, and it must be of good quality (I think I'd rather take a hit on scope quality to get a good mount and stay in my price range)

As for astro photography I'm thinking down the track I can put some money into a new mount and any adapters I might need, but I was hoping the scope would be suitable.

Oh and as for bintel and Andrews, I have looked into them but neither are open when I am able to visit (I work 6 days a week and neither are open on Sundays)

I'm so confused

[raymo]

Trevor, you are spot on, which is why I suggested the 127, which is a
Mak, and much more stable, even though it's on the same mount.

Anothernewbie, I had wrongly assumed that you preferred a motorised mount. Bintel and Andrews will be quite happy to help you on the phone.
There are several decent brands of 6" Newts on EQ mounts under $800,
including Skywatcher, and GSO. These can be fitted with a single axis motor drive fairly cheaply. Just be sure to ascertain from the vendor
that your choice of scope has sufficient back focus to enable it to
be used for prime focus photography, as many brands do not.
raymo

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

That's a much better scope/mount set up , those OTA's are very light and perform brilliantly and the mount is nice and solid ,, even with the duel axis mount system attached it's under your budget .
Brian.

Originally Posted by AnotherNewbie

Thought that Celestron was a bit too cheap, is it me or are the celestrons the toys I'm trying to avoid?

How about this one, with a set of eye pieces will fall into my price range.

Due to my past bad experience I want the mount to be as good quality, if not better that the telescope. I am happy to settle for a manual eq mount as long as its good, I can then upgrade to a motor or computerised mount when I buy what ever it is I need to start astrophotography later on.

[Regulus (Trevor)]

Con the cheap celestrons are just that. I wasted money on a 127 newt and found the only useful thing about it was the tube rings. Woeful focuser. Basically unuseable. The 127 Raymo suggests is a beautiful scope that will give a life time of pleasure and, although you might go for a different scope later, you may never want to sell it because of it's solar system object credentials.
That SK150 newt seems a bit better than the 127Celestron although I have no experience with it.
Do not overlook the Vixen 130 newt which you can get for $310. The reviews are excellent.
http://myastroshop.com.au/products/d...sp?id=MAS-066F
If you look at this add in the IIS classifieds you will find links to some of those reviews.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...d.php?t=125840

This leaves you with $500 from your budget to get a mount and the Vixen on that same EQ3 as the Skywatcher is $695
http://myastroshop.com.au/products/d...p?id=MAS-068A3

Anyway Con, I hope this helps. It is well worth taking time to think through what you want and what might do the job. I have seen people jump in early and end up with scopes/mounts that are not in the end what they wanted. It costs them more in the long run than it needed to.
Good luck with your deliberations.
Trev

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Thanks for your input Trevor, however I just want you to clarify a couple of things. The 127 (and 130) I am assuming is the aperture in mm, and I also assume when you say Newt (Newtonian) its the same as a reflector scope?
I'm at work at the moment and quite busy so I'll have a look at your suggestions and reviews a bit later and get back to you.

Thanks for being so helpful

[Regulus (Trevor)]

The 127/130 is the diameter of the mirror in mm in a newtonian or cassegrain style scope and is the measurement equivalent in reflecting scopes to the measurement across the diameter of the from lens in a refracting scope,. In Newtonian types it is the aperture. In other reflecting scopes that use a combination of lenses and mirrors, the aperture can be the from glass element, or corrector plate.
Newt(onian) and Cassegrain (SCT-, Schmidt-Cassegrain, or Mak(sutov Cassegrain or Richey-Chretien) are reflecting scopes that use a mirror as part of the optical path.
The Newtonian, including the Dobsonian, use mirrors exclusively to present the light to the eye-piece for magnification.
Cassegrain types use a combination of mirrors and lenses in various configurations.
Both types are reflecting and these two articles should give u a good overview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflecting_telescope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassegr...idt-Cassegrain

The Cassegrain type is the dearer because of the often large glass lenses, and often much dearer than a Newtonian type.
Hope this helps, but please don't hesitate to ask. If I cannot help then someone else will.
I am famous among my friends for taking the time to decide. That bodgy alt-az took about 2 days to build after thinking the process thru for 2-3 months. But I think the time spent thinking helped make it the best it could be. Same with scopes when you don't have a never ending supply of money to throw at them.
I know the Celestron 127 (and I think the Vixen 130) use an element in the bottom of the focuser to increase the magnification and allow the tube to be very short.
Trev
P.S. Here is the review that makes me think seriously about getting one for my self as a grab-and-go with a bit more aperture than my 150 f12 Maksutov-Cassegrain (Mak)
http://www.universetoday.com/35759/v...-comfort-zone/

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by AnotherNewbie

Thought that Celestron was a bit too cheap, is it me or are the celestrons the toys I'm trying to avoid?

How about this one, with a set of eye pieces will fall into my price range.

Due to my past bad experience I want the mount to be as good quality, if not better that the telescope. I am happy to settle for a manual eq mount as long as its good, I can then upgrade to a motor or computerised mount when I buy what ever it is I need to start astrophotography later on.

That's not a bad 6" telescope, but unless you live somewhere really dark, views of galaxies may be disappointing. You really need 8" (200mm) diameter for that. Though everything else - planets and other deep sky objects would look pretty good in it. Though it has a short f/5 focal ratio, which may mean that some wide angle eyepieces won't look so good at the edges. A longer focal length would be better.

You want a motorised telescope, which requires accurate polar alignment. Be warned, precise polar aligning isn't easy to do, even with a polar aligning scope in the equatorial mount. I always wind up with sore knees and a sore neck when I do it, so I only do it on the rare occasion I want to take photos.

However, with rough polar aligning and just using the two knobs on that telescope, you would have a satisfactory view. Same goes for a dobsonian telescope, where one just pushes it around.

The other thing you can do, is just wait and keep checking out the second hand telescopes listed here. Some great deals do come up.

Regards,
Renato

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

I'm liking the look of that Vixen. Your right about the reviews, people all over the place are raving about it.
However this brings some more questions (sorry, but hey at least I'm not asking if it has 500X magnification like the one I saw at Toys'R'Us right).

Firstly does anyone here have experience with it that they'd like to share?

Does this one have, and I quote "sufficient back focus to enable it to be used for prime focus photography" as stated by raymo, which I assume means can I use my DSLR with it, or am I stuck pointing my iPhone camera down the eyepeice?

Regarding deep space viewing (i.e galaxys, nebulae) I was under the impression that for deep space viewing I need a moonless night out in the country somewhere, but its been suggested I could do it in my light polluted suburban Sydney backyard if I bought a 200mm? I was expecting to only be able to see solar system and a few star clusters.


As a complete newbie would a goto mount be of any use to me? What if I couldn't do the alignment thingo, could I just use it as a motorised mount and have the batteries push it around the sky then set it track an object once I find something interesting, until I get a bit more experience that is?

I have had a look at Bintel and Andrews Comms. Bintel only seem to have a limited range/brands, and Andrews website is really difficult to use. Any other recommendations for an Aust store with Aust stock. How about AstroShop that was linked here? There are heaps out there, just don't know which one to use.

Oh and 1 thing I'm confused about, A Dobsonian type telescope, thats just a reflector (Newt) on a specific Dobsonian mount right?

I remember some years ago visiting an amateur astronomer gathering at The Oaks just talking to some of the guys there. They were all very polite and eager to show me the heavens, I saw alot of things that night but one that I distinctly remember is one of them showing me the star cluster that Subaru use in their logo, I don't remember what direction it was but I do remember it was down low in the sky. I don't why that Subaru cluster stuck in my head, it just did. I am hoping to be able to share with my daughter these sort of things and hopefully leave some lasting memorys. What started all this is she got an elchepo scope for $60 out of the toy cataloge they send home from preschool. It is pretty crap but we pointed it at the moon as she saw the all detail not visible to the naked eye and she was truly astounded. And hey if she gets bored of it, its always been a fascination for me o as long as I get something half decent I will be happy.

I am seriously considering this Vixen - R130Sf Newtonian with GOTO mount
Can anyone give me some feedback on the ALL-VIEW GOTO Alt-Az mount? Or another sturdy goto mount? I'm obsessed with mounts!!

P.S I didn't want to go 2nd hand as at my experience level I wouldn't know what to look for as far as previous damage goes.

[Regulus (Trevor)]

Con the back focus would be fine on this because the focuser barrel unscrews halfway along to take the t-mount. Even if it didn't a cheap spacer would provide it. They come in a variety of sizes.
I really like that choice with the goto mount. Worth the dollars because you don't need to southern alignment. With this you can get good results by using the two brightest stars in your sky at any time of year. From that information it will track for you.
The scope has a thread to take a T-mount so you don't need the adapter but just the Canon T-mount ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DSLR-Came...item23211905bb )
Setting up an EQ mount and finding the south pole star group for polar aligning may be difficult if you have a fair bit of light pollution, since they are not the brightest. And you need to make sure the EQ mount you buy has a polar scope because not all do.
This alt-az goto is an easy and quick solution and you should have it up and running within minutes of taking it outside.
Yes a Dobsonian is a Newtonian on the dob base. They are the best way to get lots of aperture cheapish. They are fun and frustrating at the same time because you have to work out how to find things from sky maps and it isn't always easy.
I'm still trying to find Neptune in one after a few years, whereas with this goto it's a push button affair.
I hope someone will give you a report on the scope because I will be interested too.
Best of luck
Trev
Another review :-)
http://www.scopereviews.com/page1ai.html#2

[mariner10 (Steve)]

G'day Con, I've just been going through this thread and was wondering, are you a member of an astronomical group/society?
If not I would suggest maybe think about joining and get out to as many events as possible and talk to the owners of the many different types of telescopes that will be there. I've found this to be the best type of research in the past and you can actually see what you may be getting for your money and how the scopes perform.

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Not as yet Steve, I am planning on visiting www.sasi.net.au at their next meet.

[rustigsmed (Russell)]

Hi Con,

Firstly, while there has been some good advice, I'll add my 2 cents, having owned a 6" reflector on a non electronic equatorial mount (my first telescope), and later a 12" dob, and finally a 12" newt on an electronic equatorial mount.

My suggestion would be to get an 8" dob. Why? because it will give you the best views for the price. If what you want is a good view at the eyepiece a dob will get you the best for the money. An 8" newt gathers something like 46% more light than a 6". and really is the sweet spot, 6 leaves you wanting more, 8 hits the nail on the head. The main difference is the resolution on the planets.

I wouldn't bother with an equatorial mount unless you were going for photography and then the minimum mount i'd recommend would be a skywatcher HEQ5.

It is also easier to use and setup. an equatorial mount and a Newtonian results in all sorts of neck positions. a dob is just easy and works and you don't end up breaking your back trying to look through the eyepiece. while my dob is goto, I often use it without power meaning its just normal. here is an example at the recent Saturn / moon occultation it was all 'manual' https://www.flickr.com/photos/803366...ream/lightbox/
You can also upgrade a dob to be 'goto' down the track when more funds become available. it will then track an object for you and make planetary photography easier and some bright deep sky photography possible with exposures up to 25 seconds.

also looking through scopes at a astro club is the best way of getting an idea of what you are after. My recommendation: while a 6" will be good for a while you want to go bigger later on, an 8" will go the distance. You can photograph the planets through a dob, if you want deep space stuff you will need a much more expensive equatorial mount.

All the best with your decision,

Rusty

[AnotherNewbie (Con)]

Just rang AstroShop and while he said the Vixen 130 is a good scope, he recommended this 8' dob. Can anyone give me an idea of how high it is, and how high the eyepeice would be? It seems like it would be awkward to lug around and not the sort of thing that would fit in the boot of a smallish car. Oh and would it be any good optically?

I really don't like the idea of pushing a dob around the sky, I think I'd much prefer a mount with couple of knobs for fine tuning.

Edit: Russel I didn't see your post when I wrote mine. Your pretty much repeating what the guy at AstroShop advised. My only concern is the expense of turning a dob into a goto, and its size.