Nagler and Delos

[PSALM19.1 (Shaun)]

Hi all,

Thinking of laybying a Televue EP: have an 8" Dob and wondering about any thoughts y'all might have on whether Nagler or Delos are a better option for me? (I want a 10mm - 11mm EP - I mainly use a 6mm Orion Edge-On Planetary at present - it is a good EP 55' FOV and 20mm eye relief) I know eye relief is better in the Delos, but they are also more expensive - would there be much of a difference between the two? (Guy at Bintel said the Delos has better contrast..?)

[Allan]

Delos is possibly the best eyepiece TeleVue have ever made. Being a new generation eyepiece they out perform the Nagler in every way, except for the difference in the field of view, and the type sixes have a smaller form factor if that is important to you.

If you consider you could use this eyepiece for the next ten or twenty years I wouldn't think the extra $40 cost of the Delos would be a factor. Those extra dollars buy widefield optical excellence. Personally I think the 10 Delos is a no brainer and would work wonderfully in your Dob or any future telescope you may own.

[PSALM19.1 (Shaun)]

Thanks for your reply Allan. I wonder; what is it in particular that makes the difference with these more expensive ep's? For example: I have an Orion Edge-On planetary EP (6mm) and would have to say that it is quite superior than, say, my 9mm Bintel Plossl (ignoring the power difference obviously) due to the 20mm eye relief (a VERY comfortable EP to use) and also when I look at Jupiter (for eg) there is no "funny colour" at the edge of the planet when viewing, it is uniform. Cloud belts are clearly defined and the red spot is obvious (once I "trained" my eye to see it!)...I can also make out moon transits as well; some nights with clarity even using a 2 x barlow! So, for arguments sake, I buy myself a Delos and look at the same planet on the same night - what would be the visible difference? (I realise that an exact answer isn't really possible, unless you (or someone) owns both types of EP's... But "ballpark wisdom" will do in this case

[Allan]

Eyepieces that are expensive cost more because they use better components, better and more glass elements that are polished longer, better coatings, better QC. All those extras add up.

I wouldn't spend the money on a Delos with the sole intention of getting better planetary views. On nights of good seeing you should notice better contrast and sharpness in the Delos, but a lot of the time there won't be much difference. Where Delos excels is deep sky. That is where you will see a nice improvement over your Orion Edge On Planetary. Bigger, flat field of view, high transmission and contrast, great colour fidelity.

If you are keen to improve planetary viewing no eyepiece comes close to observing through a bino viewer. I've seen more with a bino coupled with good orthos and Plossls, than I will ever see in a Delos.

But on the flip side, bino viewers don't perform nearly as well on deep sky because of the light loss in the system. So that still makes the Delos the best all round option for viewing everything in my opinion.

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

+1 on the bino viewers , I use standard Bintel plossl's and the views of the planets are better than any other eyepiece I own , something to be said about using 2 eyes .
But be aware it takes a fair bit of practice to see the best that this set up will provide and .. oh yes it can get expensive .
Brian.

[PSALM19.1 (Shaun)]

Mmmm, more food for thought!

[Allan]

I just bought the 3.5 and 4.5 Delos today. At this focal length I didn't consider any other eyepieces. There is no wide field eyepiece I have used that is the equivalent of the Delos in the shorter focal lengths.

Maybe you could find someone with a Delos to try out, or else come for a drive up to one of our Bretti camps where you will get to try dozens of different eyepieces at a site with very dark skies. Just check out the star parties section and look at the Bretti thread.

[Profiler (Profiler)]

Another option to consider instead of Delos is Pentax XW. One tenth of the marketing hype and about 10 percent better optics and also approximately 10 percent cheaper.

I would generally say ethos are better than delos but they are more designed for different objectives. Delos is the replacement for the old Radians and is aimed at providing 20mm ER for those who need specs. The ethos are aimed at providing best possible FOV.

Best bang for your buck EP around IMHO is the Pentax XF8.5mm

After this the Vixen NLVS are hard to beat in terms of quality v cost especially as they are being superseded by the SLVs and thus are on clearance at many stores.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by Allan

I just bought the 3.5 and 4.5 Delos today. At this focal length I didn't consider any other eyepieces. There is no wide field eyepiece I have used that is the equivalent of the Delos in the shorter focal lengths.

Hi Allan,

I have to be honest, I think your comments are giving blinkered non objective advice to a newcomer. Delos may be your magic bullet, but they aren't perfect in every performance criteria and there are several good options, some of which cost a lot less than a new Delos.

I own 3 large Pelican cases full of Premium eyepieces including Delos, Ethos, Nagler T4's, Nagler T5's, Televue Radians and Pentax XW's. On top of that I have used a lot of other premium eyepieces like Vixen LVW's, Leica ASPH zoom, Nikon NAV HW, Doctor Optics 12.5mm, Brandons, Zeiss Abbes etc. Some of those are clearly better eyepieces than Delos. For instance, the 12.5mm Doctor makes a mess of the 12mm Delos and the 13mm ETHOS IMO. At about $1,000 an eyepiece, so it should. Similarly, the 12.5mm Nikon NAV HW is a better eyepiece IMO than either the 12mm Delos and 13mm ETHOS. Again the Nikon doesn't leave you much change from a grand. In the shorter focal lengths (sub 10mm) the Televue Delos do not do a single thing my Pentax XW's have been doing for over 10 years. I spent a lot of time evaluating several 6mm eyepieces including, 6mm TV Delos, 6mm TV Radian, 3mm to 6mm Nagler zoom, 6mm University Optics HD ortho, 6mm Carl Zeiss Jena orthoscopic. I also compared the 7mm Pentax XW but because of the difference in focal lengths I left it out of the overall analysis. In some performance criteria, notably EOF correction in my 10"/f5.3 newtonian the Televue Radian outperformed the Delos. In some other performance criteria the Delos outdid the Radian, but it was pretty close and most differences were subtle between them. On the basis you can buy a 2nd hand Radian for sometimes just under $200 compared to over $400 for a new Delos, I know which one is clearly the best value. After the evaluation one thing was very clear, If I had to make a choice between my 6mm Delos and 7mm Pentax XW and one had to leave home, it would be the 6mm Delos which got the boot each and every time. That's not to say the Delos are not great eyepieces, they are, it's saying there are some other excellent options as well. Considering you can land a brand new Pentax XW in Australia for $100 an eyepiece less than a new Delos, I know which represent the best value to me.

Originally Posted by Allan

Maybe you could find someone with a Delos to try out, or else come for a drive up to xone of our Bretti camps where you will get to try dozens of different eyepieces at a site with very dark skies. Just check out the star parties section and look at the Bretti thread.

Shaun,

If you would like to meet up one night in the Kiama / Shellharbour region I would be happy to let you try some of these eyepieces in your scope before you plonked your hard earned cash down. I have Delos, Pentax XW's, TV Radians, Pentax 8.5XF and UO HD orthos in the sub 10mm focal lengths which you could try in your scope and then buy the one which you like best, which may or may not be the TV Delos.

Cheers
John B

[casstony]

At 10mm focal length I'd recommend putting up a wanted ad for a Delos or XW 10mm and buy either one. Delos have been selling used for around $270 - $300 in the classifieds, quite a discount on new price.
The long eye relief allows comfortable and relaxed viewing and the views through both are excellent.

The IIS classifieds have been a bit of a gold mine in the last couple of years with high quality gear of all sorts available at large discounts, sometimes 1/2 to 2/3 of new price.

[Allan]

John, you have a lot of respect in the astro community, so I am not going to sit here and pull your argument apart. But we were specifically talking about the Sub 10mm, Widefield class. I bought a Delos when they were launched and compared them to XW's which are their only real competitor in this space. I preferred the Delos, I could see a difference, so I have invested in them. You like your XW's which is great, but just watch out for that blinkered non objective advice.

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

Yes , + 1 on the TV Radian,s John , I also have 2 cases of TelVue of all types and will never sell my case of radian,s they are just so good as an eyepiece , some put them down but that is their loss , great all rounder.

Brian.

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

Hi Allan,

I have to be honest, I think your comments are giving blinkered non objective advice to a newcomer. Delos may be your magic bullet, but they aren't perfect in every performance criteria and there are several good options, some of which cost a lot less than a new Delos.

I own 3 large Pelican cases full of Premium eyepieces including Delos, Ethos, Nagler T4's, Nagler T5's, Televue Radians and Pentax XW's. On top of that I have used a lot of other premium eyepieces like Vixen LVW's, Leica ASPH zoom, Nikon NAV HW, Doctor Optics 12.5mm, Brandons, Zeiss Abbes etc. Some of those are clearly better eyepieces than Delos. For instance, the 12.5mm Doctor makes a mess of the 12mm Delos and the 13mm ETHOS IMO. At about $1,000 an eyepiece, so it should. Similarly, the 12.5mm Nikon NAV HW is a better eyepiece IMO than either the 12mm Delos and 13mm ETHOS. Again the Nikon doesn't leave you much change from a grand. In the shorter focal lengths (sub 10mm) the Televue Delos do not do a single thing my Pentax XW's have been doing for over 10 years. I spent a lot of time evaluating several 6mm eyepieces including, 6mm TV Delos, 6mm TV Radian, 3mm to 6mm Nagler zoom, 6mm University Optics HD ortho, 6mm Carl Zeiss Jena orthoscopic. I also compared the 7mm Pentax XW but because of the difference in focal lengths I left it out of the overall analysis. In some performance criteria, notably EOF correction in my 10"/f5.3 newtonian the Televue Radian outperformed the Delos. In some other performance criteria the Delos outdid the Radian, but it was pretty close and most differences were subtle between them. On the basis you can buy a 2nd hand Radian for sometimes just under $200 compared to over $400 for a new Delos, I know which one is clearly the best value. After the evaluation one thing was very clear, If I had to make a choice between my 6mm Delos and 7mm Pentax XW and one had to leave home, it would be the 6mm Delos which got the boot each and every time. That's not to say the Delos are not great eyepieces, they are, it's saying there are some other excellent options as well. Considering you can land a brand new Pentax XW in Australia for $100 an eyepiece less than a new Delos, I know which represent the best value to me.



Shaun,

If you would like to meet up one night in the Kiama / Shellharbour region I would be happy to let you try some of these eyepieces in your scope before you plonked your hard earned cash down. I have Delos, Pentax XW's, TV Radians, Pentax 8.5XF and UO HD orthos in the sub 10mm focal lengths which you could try in your scope and then buy the one which you like best, which may or may not be the TV Delos.

Cheers
John B

[Profiler (Profiler)]

Have to agree with Brian - I think the Radians are grossly under-rated and can't fathom why they were discontinued other than to capitalise on the Pentax XW market share which are apparently being discontinued. Really the best option is to have some of both given the slight differences in focal length can make a big difference in planetary observing such as a 3mm Radian v 3.5 XW/Delos when using short fl refractors

At the end of the day however with top shelf EPs the differences are modest and bigger differences in viewing are ultimately achieved by changing scope/aperture etc

[PSALM19.1 (Shaun)]

Wow, sorry for starting an eyepiece war guys! Look, my socks get blessed off looking through my Bintel Plossls and Orion Edge-On as it is...my only reason for wanting to upgrade is really just due to the fact that I'd like to start getting max. out of my "little" scope (I still remember looking at the Moon through a Celestron First Scope and thinking, wow, that's awesome!) and figured a Televue EP would be a good start. And I am sure that the others mentioned would also be a blast to look through! I'm a bit of a planetary/moon viewer ("once a moon man, always a moon man" as Sir Patrick stated!) and am wondering if I might be best to wait a bit before splashing out the bucks on EP's that are probably more help in DSO viewing...? The Bino Viewers seems like an interesting choice...didn't seem to be any available at Bintel...? Of course, the next variable is money put on an EP could go toward a 12" scope...ooohhh... Oh and, thanks for that offer John...I'll PM you if I can sort myself out

[Profiler (Profiler)]

Question for John Bambury (Ausastronomer)

John - you mentioned the German 12.5 Docter previously - I hope this is a simple question - is it worth getting one given the price?

For example - if you already have a 13mm Ethos, 14mmXW and 12.5XF is it worth getting one? or more to the point - what can the Docter do which the others can't?

[dannat (Daniel)]

there sia thread on CN atm reELOS -most agree they are televue's best ep ever produced - why are they selling so many secondhand -size & bulk apparently -the T6 nagler are samller & wider [albeit not as comfortable]
seems something about the ergonomics most users love -some just dont like

Shaun my opinion havnt owned from $4 to $400 ep's -there isnt a huge difference -sure some are nicer & wider..best to try some out for yourself

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by Allan

You like your XW's which is great, but just watch out for that blinkered non objective advice.

Hi Allan,

I own 6 Pentax eyepieces and 15 Televue eyepieces/accessories. Overall the Televue eyepieces probably take up more focuser time than the Pentax eyepieces. Not much of a blinkered approach there. I am just trying to give Shaun some objective advice that he should consider more options than just Delos in the 60 to 70 deg AFOV long eye relief range, particularly if cost is a consideration.

As usual the best option is unquestionably to try before you buy, as one mans whiskey is another mans water.

Cheers
John B

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by Profiler

Question for John Bambury (Ausastronomer)

John - you mentioned the German 12.5 Docter previously - I hope this is a simple question - is it worth getting one given the price?

That depends on how much money you have

Originally Posted by Profiler

For example - if you already have a 13mm Ethos, 14mmXW and 12.5XF is it worth getting one? or more to the point - what can the Docter do which the others can't?

Here you go, here is a short write up I did on the 12.5mm Docter back in 2011

It is still the single best eyepiece I have ever used. Back in 2011 I hadn't used the 17mm and 12.5mm Nikon NAV HW's but I got to use those in March 2013. They are also right at the top of the tree. However, they don't have as much eye relief as the 12.5mm Docter and you can't take in the full FOV with glasses on. The shorter eye relief and wider FOV doesn't really suit me so I wouldn't buy the Nikons notwithstanding they are probably the 2nd best eyepieces I have used in terms of optical performance.

Whilst I rate the 12.5mm Docter as "the best", the gains as you get near the top of the tree are marginal and subtle. The AFOV is listed as 84 deg but its closer to 90. Contrast, light transmission and sharpness are exceptional and it gives a wonderful flat field view in F5 Newtonians without a paracorr.

Is it worth the asking price? If I didn't already have 2 x 12mm Nagler T4's, a 13mm ETHOS and a 14mm Pentax XW and I was starting out fresh then I might go that way. To me it isn't worth selling what I have to buy the 12.5mm Docter, as I use what I have and enjoy them all. However, I am the first to concede it is better than the rest if only by subtle amounts in most areas. The overall viewing experience with it is unsurpassed as it has no faults and is just about perfect in every respect. James Packer wouldn't even think about it

Cheers
John B