Solar cost to rival coal in 10 years

[bojan]

Ron,
I am not trying to be insensitive here, but I feel it's not fair of you to pull those low blows to the industry that is actually quite safe.

It's the same thing to say air traffic is not safe because when plane goes down, everybody is killed.

We have to put all this into right perspective:
How many disasters (human deaths) per kWh generated?

You'd be surprised, nuclear power plant will have a better score compared to coal plant.
Not to mention pollution (CO2, smoke etc).

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Ron,
I am not trying to be insensitive here, but I feel it's not fair of you to pull those low blows to the industry that is actually quite safe.

It's the same thing to say air traffic is not safe because when plane goes down, everybody is killed.
We have to put all this into right perspective:
How many disasters (human deaths) per kWh generated?
that really is not in perspective
You'd be surprised, nuclear power plant will have a better score compared to coal plant.
Not to mention pollution (CO2, smoke etc).

>Chernoble effected Thousands not hundreds as in a plane crash and made great areas of the landscape uninhabitable for both Man and creatures alike.
Lots of people across Europe and Russia where effected
As will probably be the result of this Japanese disaster if the thing goes really pear shaped
All as you are doing is putting the economic angle before the safety angle
when was the last time a conventional power station blew its top and caused such a major problemhttp://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/....estionicon.gif
As the main focus to this conversation we are trying to focus the energy problem away from Dirty fossil Fuel's into Clean energy alternatives

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Carl Tell that to the people of Japan who are sitting on a possible time bomb
and also to all the dead and deformed people from the effects pf Chernoble
Safe if you believe that Accidents don"t happen
A Nuclear power plant would cost in the region of a couple of billion dollars and take at least 5-10 years to build , and the big stumbling block Not in my backyard
Nuclear Power IS NOT SAFE Ask those Japanese people who have been told to move 80kms away from the site of the power station

Ron, please...2 extreme cases in an industry whose safety record far exceeds any other power generating industry and a lot of others as well. That's not to say it doesn't have problems, but you have to be pragmatic and realistic about what you say and not go down some emotive line when you look into something like this. If they never had the quake or tsunami, those reactors would be blithely putting out electricity and you'd have never heard hide nor hair of them. Any powerplant has accidents, nuclear included, but which power industry has had the worst accidents and the greatest number of deaths and serious health concerns over the years....I think you'll find it's conventional plants.

How much do you think a coal fired or gas fired powerplant costs to build and how long it takes to build one...it's just as long as a nuclear plant. How safe do you think they really are...and if you don't think there's any radioactivity, think again. One of the dangers of coal fired plants is the radon gas that is present in coal. But apart from that you have all the other problems associated with them, as is well known.

In any case, the problem in Japan is nothing like Chernobyl, not even close. The reactors are a different type and far more modern. Chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen, plus a case of incompetency on the part of the operators. Japan is a case of being in the wrong place and not being strong enough to withstand a quake of this size. But then again how many structures would be.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Chernoble effected Thousands not hundreds as in a plane crash and made great areas of the landscape uninhabitable for both Man and creatures alike.
Lots of people across Europe and Russia where effected

Best estimates put the maximum death toll from Chernobyl and it's after effects at 4000, over a 100 year period after the disaster. That comes from the leading medical experts.

As for the place being uninhabited, the trees are still growing, plants are thriving (actually the towns which were evacuated are being reclaimed by the forests there) and animals live there as well. Yes, there are problems still with the radiation, but nothing like the place being turned into some kind of wasteland/desert. It's unsafe for people and will be for quite some time, but if you want to see what happens after a long time, just take a quick look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Both the bombs dropped on those cities put out far more deadly radioactivity than Chernobyl ever did, yet there's nearly 2 million people living in both cities. Where's the problems there, now??

[bojan]

Originally Posted by astroron

All as you are doing is putting the economic angle before the safety angle

No mate, I am not building nor I am selling the nuclear plants
I am just trying to present the balanced view/perspective here, and I am trying to be rational - because, at the end, this is what will determine the future of energy generation, being it solar, wind, fusion, fission or whatever..

Chernobil event is not a good example to illustrate the (un)safety of those installations.. The disaster there was caused by human error, not by technology per se. In Japan, it was possibly under-appreciation of tsunami and it's effects on systems other than nuclear reactors.

On the other hand, 60% of energy generated in France is nuclear.. I don't remember reading about problems there, and France is a bit more densely populated than Australia..

All in all, like it or not, we live in capitalism, where economy is a major (only?) player and we can't do much about it.

BTW, the Chernobil radioactive cloud passed over the city when I was there..

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Ron, please...2 extreme cases in an industry whose safety record far exceeds any other power generating industry and a lot of others as well. That's not to say it doesn't have problems, but you have to be pragmatic and realistic about what you say and not go down some emotive line when you look into something like this. If they never had the quake or tsunami, those reactors would be blithely putting out electricity and you'd have never heard hide nor hair of them. Any powerplant has accidents, nuclear included, but which power industry has had the worst accidents and the greatest number of deaths and serious health concerns over the years....I think you'll find it's conventional plants.

How much do you think a coal fired or gas fired powerplant costs to build and how long it takes to build one...it's just as long as a nuclear plant. How safe do you think they really are...and if you don't think there's any radioactivity, think again. One of the dangers of coal fired plants is the radon gas that is present in coal. But apart from that you have all the other problems associated with them, as is well known.

In any case, the problem in Japan is nothing like Chernobyl, not even close. The reactors are a different type and far more modern. Chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen, plus a case of incompetency on the part of the operators. Japan is a case of being in the wrong place and not being strong enough to withstand a quake of this size. But then again how many structures would be.

Carl there have been many more Accidents in the Nuclear Power Generating Industry Britain in the past had quite a few so did the USA (Three Mile Island comes to mind),but A lot of the Accidents Go Under reported with small bits of reporting down the back of the paper or the news
Big Question why build Nuclear power plants in an earth quake prone area
Big Answer Money

[renormalised (Carl)]

BTW, Chernobyl is Russian for wormwood, so if anyone wants to get prophetic about the disaster, here's your chance

[Terry B]

Originally Posted by GrampianStars

A 5kW 48-120V Westwind Turbine Price: Aprox $20,000
A 5Kw Turbine makes around $39,000 (todays prices) of electricity, or 180,000 kwh of electricity in average wind speeds of 5.5m/s. over 15 years.
So works out around $2,000 per year for power at todays prices

Exactly, but when you add ~$40000 for cabling it is never viable unfortunately.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by astroron

Big Question why build Nuclear power plants in an earth quake prone area
Big Answer Money

Correct answer !

[GrampianStars (Rob)]

Originally Posted by Terry B

Exactly, but when you add ~$40000 for cabling it is never viable unfortunately.

Terry
Thats around $2000 per year including your instalation

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Carl there have been many more Accidents in the Nuclear Power Generating Industry Britain in the past had quite a few so did the USA (Three Mile Island comes to mind),but A lot of the Accidents Go Under reported with small bits of reporting down the back of the paper or the news
Big Question why build Nuclear power plants in an earth quake prone area
Big Answer Money

Yes, I know about Sellafield/Windscale and the others. They're high profile only because it's to do with nuclear energy. However, there have been far more accidents in coal and gas fired plants over the years and you hardly ever hear of them unless it's really major...even then many get hushed up. Then you have the ongoing health issue associated with the use of coal.

Where else are they going to build the powerplants, nuclear or otherwise?? Especially in Japan. Simple fact the islands were formed from crustal buckling and volcanic activity along a subduction zone means they'll inevitably be prone to earthquakes....money or no money.

[MrB (Simon)]

Originally Posted by GrampianStars

Unfortunately,the majority of Aussie power consumers prefer to Consume more and buy up endlessly. Like a new Plasma TV, Air-Conditioner, Car, Caravan, Astronomy Mount, Telescope, Oomputer, I-Phone, ...etc, etc,

lol, iPhones hardly figure into overall power usage.
Oh, and my iPhone IS solar powered

[GrampianStars (Rob)]

Originally Posted by bojan

.......
We have to put all this into right perspective:
How many disasters (human deaths) per kWh generated?
.....

An estimated 100,000 killed every year globally on the roads....
and no body bats an eyelid to that
OK we better go back to Horse and buggy as well then...
But wait........
Future food shortages will have all the horses eaten instead.....
So...... back to foot traffic only!
But wait....
NO shoes as No leather available from having eaten all the animals ....
Ah... a vicious enviornmental cycle Eh!

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Yes, I know about Sellafield/Windscale and the others. They're high profile only because it's to do with nuclear energy. However, there have been far more accidents in coal and gas fired plants over the years and you hardly ever hear of them unless it's really major...even then many get hushed up. Then you have the ongoing health issue associated with the use of coal.

Where else are they going to build the powerplants, nuclear or otherwise?? Especially in Japan. Simple fact the islands were formed from crustal buckling and volcanic activity along a subduction zone means they'll inevitably be prone to earthquakes....money or no money.

Then I suspect that Geothermal should be a viable source of power
I don't think there will be Nuclear power in Australia while I am on this mortal toil,but then I could cark it tomorrow
We should be putting more effort and Dollars into Alternative Fuels,but whilste we have the approach that we have now of mainly Dollars and cents clean energy is always going to be a Big struggle to compete with the big Polluters and and the Fossil fuel industry

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

However, there have been far more accidents in coal and gas fired plants over the years and you hardly ever hear of them unless it's really major...even then many get hushed up. Then you have the ongoing health issue associated with the use of coal.

Yes Carl … I agree !

How many deaths happen in China as a result of poor Coal mining practices?

Thousands per year !

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by GrampianStars

An estimated 100,000 killed every year globally on the roads....
and no body bats an eyelid to that

Speaking of which, apparently there are 25000 road accidents in Iran each year....the worst in the world!!!. They should ban cars

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Yes Carl … I agree !

How many deaths happen in China as a result of poor Coal mining practices?

Thousands per year !

Cheers

That is a situation that is easily Fixed, better mining practices,

[Terry B]

Originally Posted by GrampianStars

Terry
Thats around $2000 per year including your instalation

Interesting. The unit I had looked at is this one
http://www.edenpower.com.au/wind-energy/skystream-37/
There seems to be a bit of variation in price, performance and quality between turbines. More investigation is needed I think.

[GrampianStars (Rob)]

Originally Posted by MrB

lol, iPhones hardly figure into overall power usage.
Oh, and my iPhone IS solar powered

Completely amazing On average 75K of raw material + 7.5Kw energy to make (1 x100g) phone!
Not trivial indead

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Then I suspect that Geothermal should be a viable source of power
I don't think there will be Nuclear power in Australia while I am on this mortal toil,but then I could cark it tomorrow
We should be putting more effort and Dollars into Alternative Fuels,but whilste we have the approach that we have now of mainly Dollars and cents clean energy is always going to be a Big struggle to compete with the big Polluters and and the Fossil fuel industry

That they should an I believe that they do have some small geothermal plants. Problem is they're very hard to maintain as the steam they generate from the water they use is highly corrosive. Unfortunately that seems to be a feature of geothermal plants everywhere. One good thing can come of it....the pipes the water/steam travels in are sometimes laden with things like gold and silver!!!