Hot Plasma and Saturn

[CraigS]

Cassini seems to be getting into the interactions between plasma and Saturn's Magnetic field.

Hot Plasma Explosions Inflate Saturn’s Magnetic Field

The visualization shows how invisible hot plasma in Saturn’s magnetosphere – the magnetic bubble around the planet -- explodes and distorts magnetic field lines in response to the pressure. Saturn’s magnetosphere is not a perfect bubble because it is blown back by the force of the solar wind, which contains charged particles streaming off the sun.

This animation, derived from data obtained by NASA’s Cassini spacecraft, shows how plasma swirling around Saturn is correlated to bursts of radio waves emanating from the planet.

The force of the solar wind stretches the magnetic field of the side of Saturn facing away from the sun into a so-called magnetotail. The collapse of the magnetotail appears to kick off a process that causes the hot plasma bursts, which in turn inflate the magnetic field in the inner magnetosphere.

Scientists are still investigating what causes Saturn's magnetotail to collapse, but there are strong indications that cold, dense plasma originally from Saturn's moon Enceladus rotates with Saturn. Centrifugal forces stretch the magnetic field until part of the tail snaps back.

Very interesting. At last we are getting some quantitative data about planetary bound plasma, (other than Earth's), and its behaviours.

And one final one (just for Jarvamundo) ..

“We all know that changing rotation periods have been observed at pulsars, millions of light years from our solar system, and now we find that a similar phenomenon is observed right here at Saturn," said Tom Krimigis, principal investigator of the magnetospheric imaging instrument …

Chuckle, chuckle ..
Cheers

[xelasnave]

I was reading about this yesterday on sciencedaily and admit it crossed my mind how such may be viewed by the EU folk
alex

[CraigS]

The environment around Saturn is very specific.

The interesting thing for me is that here we have the unique opportunity to gather some real data (because of Cassini's presence), about the behaviours of considerable volumes of both hot and cold, gravity bound plasmas in a big planetary magnetic field.

The comment about plasmas and rotation of pulsars (in the same breath) is quite surprising. I can see the possibility of plasmas having some kind of role to play in the 'glitches' emanating from pulsars … but the rotation ??

We may never be able to keep the other Alex calm about this one !!

Cheers

[CraigS]

Just to add, the complete quote in question should read …

“We all know that changing rotation periods have been observed at pulsars, millions of light years from our solar system, and now we find that a similar phenomenon is observed right here at Saturn," said Tom Krimigis, principal investigator of the magnetospheric imaging instrument, also based at the Applied Physics Laboratory and the Academy of Athens, Greece. "With instruments right at the spot where it’s happening, we can tell that plasma flows and complex current systems can mask the real rotation period of the central body. That’s how observations in our solar system help us understand what is seen in distant astrophysical objects.”

This doesn't imply that the plasma causes any rotation phenomenon .. its that they have now observed that it is possible that it can cause difficulty in measuring any the rotation phenomenon, (where present).

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Does the statement....we can tell that plasma flows and complex current systems can mask the real rotation period of the central body. offend logic?
How can we determine the real rotation if masked and therefore defy observation. I guess "real rotation" is what we expect from our sums.
Anyways everything in the article adds cred to a push universe rather than a EU dont you think Craig
alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Does the statement....we can tell that plasma flows and complex current systems can mask the real rotation period of the central body. offend logic?
How can we determine the real rotation if masked and therefore defy observation. I guess "real rotation" is what we expect from our sums.

Just cause they can't measure it, doesn't mean that there's no 'real' rotation velocity.

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Anyways everything in the article adds cred to a push universe rather than a EU dont you think Craig
alex

I don't know Alex .. DOES IT ???

Cheers

PS: And you reckon I keep getting you mixed up with the other Alex !!… Geez .. I dunno …

[sjastro]

Anyways everything in the article adds cred to a push universe rather than a EU dont you think Craig
alex

Alex you have given a great example of the "Dicto Simplicter" fallacy.

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Alex you have given a great example of the "Dicto Simplicter" fallacy.

Regards

Steven

I had no idea
alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Just cause they can't measure it, doesn't mean that there's no 'real' rotation velocity.



I don't know Alex .. DOES IT ???

Cheers

PS: And you reckon I keep getting you mixed up with the other Alex !!… Geez .. I dunno …

Craig we cant argue with the observations in support of a push universe

On a serious note I am tempted to look at Thunderbolts as no doubt they will see it as support for EU.... and can imagine there will be a thread upon this exciting observation.

Have a great day...got to now been invited for a xmas drink with the smartest fella around here which is ironic because he can not read or write but for my money he is exceptionally intelligent and exhibits a totally different approach to problem solving.

alex

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Darn it... think i deled my post

ahh cmon Craig... finish the quote brother...

Quote:
“We all *know* that changing rotation periods have been observed at pulsars, millions of light years from our solar system, and now we find that a similar phenomenon is observed right here at Saturn," said Tom Krimigis, principal investigator of the magnetospheric imaging instrument, also based at the Applied Physics Laboratory and the Academy of Athens, Greece. "With instruments right at the spot where it’s happening, we can tell that plasma flows and complex current systems can mask the real rotation period of the central body. That’s how observations in our solar system help us understand what is seen in distant astrophysical objects.”
Are your senses satisfied by what is said here?

Might we spot the logical inconsistencies in 'knowing' something 'out there', then finding it apparently difficult to measure something close by? ouch, darn empiricism.

As an exercise, lets separate the observations from the model 'assumptions', as an example Pulsars: Signal variability does not *exclusively* indicate a rotational change, 'rotation' is an assumption as mechanisms for 'pulsing' light include more than a lighthouse (as anyone who has sat under a bung flouro tube knows), much worse these frequency glitches require prodigious energy to both slow down, and speed up... and so this signal variability can provide a falsifying test of the model which invokes super dense compact matter beyond any experimental verification just to 'hold' the star together.

but alas... of course, the assumptions must be maintained as the science of reification fails without such chants of 'we know', 'we know'... and so we invent 'star quakes' to kick the can down the street a little further, but little old layman over here now finds an article such as this provided by Craig....

I repeat
We seem to 'know' stuff out there
But we are still working out stuff near here?

...is it an extraordinary thought to look to question these 'rotational' assumptions given that bodies well within a fraction of a light year have yet to reveal their secrets.

ahwell, we carry on

Quote:
On a serious note I am tempted to look at Thunderbolts as no doubt they will see it as support for EU.... and can imagine there will be a thread upon this exciting observation.
ahh yes... there is another team of plasma and electrical engineers exploring these problems using electrodynamics and electrical engineering concepts... It should not be uncomfortable to discuss EU ideas here, the literature is peer reviewed and regularly published in the world's most renowned high energy plasma physics journal IEEE ICOPS, of which is directly applicable here. Would it not be an holistic approach to explaining 'things out there' with well demonstrated plasma engineering science (real stuff) down here?

Much of these electrical engineering ideas actually stretch back to 1800's, days of empirical science and little experiments and expeditions exploring magnetic field aligned currents, and continue to be verified as scalable to solar distances, such as in this article by Craig.

Nice article, thanks Craig.

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

did yours del too Craig? Something about Nereid?

[CraigS]

So did I.

Here it is again ..

Ahh Alex (Jarva);

Where have ya been, man ??

It was so long ago, I can't even remember what this one was all about !!

How did ya go with that spectrum/comet issue ?
Find anything out ?

If you'd read up on your Nereid & Physicist posts, I would have thought you'd be rethinking your comments about empiricism and 19th Century science, given that it seems to be the mainstay of present day EU ideas !

Merry Christmas and Happy New year to ya matey … (err 'brother') !!

Cheers

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

So did I.

Here it is again ..

Ahh Alex (Jarva);

Where have ya been, man ??

and paying my tax's so we can build another dark matter probe. You?

Originally Posted by CraigS

It was so long ago, I can't even remember what this one was all about !!

How did ya go with that spectrum/comet issue ?
Find anything out ?

T-ing up a meeting with some chemists over the break... hopefully spark some interest

Originally Posted by CraigS

If you'd read up on your Nereid & Physicist posts, I would have thought you'd be rethinking your comments about empiricism and 19th Century science, given that it seems to be the mainstay of present day EU ideas !

considering the amount of working *stuff* delivered from 19th century science, nah i'll stick with empiricism.

found a black hole or a worm-hole yet? Or are you still mesmorized by penrose's pre-big bang wmap doodles? I still havent got my hoverboard craig... not happy jan.

Originally Posted by CraigS

Merry Christmas and Happy New year to ya matey … (err 'brother') !!

Cheers

right back at ya.. have a good one

cheers

[sjastro]

Craig,

The only inaccuracy in Physicist's otherwise precise commentary in the Thunderbolts forum is the claim that EU takes physics back to 1900.

In reality it is more like 1800. In 1800 before the advent of electrodynamics, the consensus was that everything could be explained by Newtonian physics, much like everything today in the EU sense can be explained by electrical currents, potentials and magnetic fields.

Alex,

Have you ever found an electron? Electrons have never been observed directly in nature or in the laboratory. Should we therefore adopt your standard as for black holes or neutron stars, that electrons are hypothetical entities.

Isn't ironical that for an "empirical" science like EU or PC, the fundamental building block, the electron, has never been directly observed.

Gentlemen have a Merry Christmas.

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

considering the amount of working *stuff* delivered from 19th century science, nah i'll stick with empiricism.

found a black hole or a worm-hole yet? Or are you still mesmorized by penrose's pre-big bang wmap doodles? I still havent got my hoverboard craig... not happy jan.

Alex;
I hope you don't make use of the Drift-Alfven model to explain hexagons and magnetic field rotation effects around Saturn …

Jeroen Bergmans makes a lot of use of Lagrangian descriptions, Hamiltonian structures and stress tensors for magnetised plasmas in his assumptions before moving forth with his description of the Alfven-Drift model.

All that stuff sounds highly un-empirical and very theoretically based, to me!! (Where did all that stuff come from ?? )

Cheers

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Craig,

The only inaccuracy in Physicist's otherwise precise commentary in the Thunderbolts forum is the claim that EU takes physics back to 1900.

In reality it is more like 1800. In 1800 before the advent of electrodynamics, the consensus was that everything could be explained by Newtonian physics, much like everything today in the EU sense can be explained by electrical currents, potentials and magnetic fields.

Alex,

Have you ever found an electron? Electrons have never been observed directly in nature or in the laboratory. Should we therefore adopt your standard as for black holes or neutron stars, that electrons are hypothetical entities.

Isn't ironical that for an "empirical" science like EU or PC, the fundamental building block, the electron, has never been directly observed.

Gentlemen have a Merry Christmas.

Steven

all too true Steven... speaking my language brother... the electron is an artifact of bert n co.

Electrons have nothing to do with the flow of electricity. Electrons are the rate at which electricity is destroyed. Electrons are the resistance." - Eric Dollard

"Unfortunately, to large extent in dealing with dielectric fields the prehistoric conception of the electrostatic charge (electron) on the conductor still exists, and by its use destroys the analogy between the two components of the electric field, the magnetic and the dielectric, and makes the consideration of dielectric fields unnecessarily complicated" Charles Proteus Steinmetz

Lets keep going back to the pre 1900's descriptions shall we?

I'm glad you seem to appreciate the relevance Steven.

Merry xmas

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Alex;
I hope you don't make use of the Drift-Alfven model to explain hexagons and magnetic field rotation effects around Saturn …

All that stuff sounds highly un-empirical and very theoretically based, to me!! (Where did all that stuff come from ?? )

hahah man seriously... go read Alfven's history... he and his work on exploding DC power transmission lines are far from theoretical! You do know why the man got the Nobel yeah?...

We're not still building hex's from plaits of mud are we? hehehe

merry xmas.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

all too true Steven... speaking my language brother... the electron is an artifact of bert n co.

Lets keep going back to the pre 1900's descriptions shall we?

I'm glad you seem to appreciate the relevance Steven.

Merry xmas

Alex,

I'll ignore the play on words

So how you do define a plasma?
If electrons are an "artifact of bert n co", how does one define ionization?
What does a gas lose to become a plasma?

Regards

Steven

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

What does a gas lose to become a plasma?

Just about all respect for gravitational influence?

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

hahah man seriously... go read Alfven's history... he and his work on exploding DC power transmission lines are far from theoretical! You do know why the man got the Nobel yeah?...

We're not still building hex's from plaits of mud are we? hehehe

merry xmas.

I wasn't questioning Alfven's mainstream work … just how you guys are likely to interpret it to explain Saturn observations …
… and the fact that most of the explanations involve theoretical modelling of the 'hardest core' and them being based around SR theory.


Cheers
PS:Lets avoid any 'mud-slinging' too, eh ??