Go Back   IceInSpace > Equipment > ATM and DIY Projects
Register FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 29-01-2015, 01:12 PM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Thermoelectric Temperature Controller

Is anyone using one of these?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251782918...84.m1439.l2649

I've got one from eBay but it came with absolutely no users manual, instructions, guidance etc.

I wired it into a peltier TEC device this morning but it lost me entirely and I quickly turned it off - it seemed to me to be heating not cooling and the TEC fan's wern't operating. I checked and the peltier was OK. It was only running a short time thankfully but I thought I was in danger of burning it out.

I'd appreciate a bit of help from anyone else who has one.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 29-01-2015, 02:10 PM
killswitch's Avatar
killswitch (Edison)
Registered User

killswitch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Western Sydney, NSW
Posts: 537
Swap the polarity of the TEC wires?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29-01-2015, 02:31 PM
mldee's Avatar
mldee (Mike)
Photon sorter

mldee is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Near Warwick, Qld, Australia
Posts: 651
Where is the ntc sensor measuring? Hot or cold side, heat sink, etc? I presume you're using a large enough 12V supply?

My suggestion would probably be to have the sensor measure the cold side of the peltier. This should then command the controller to either heat or cool that side as per the dial setting.

BTW, I have a DSII OSC with attached Peltier unit. You're welcome to borrow it if you wish. My solution in 2009 to making it work well was to put it in my cupboard and buy a QHY8
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 29-01-2015, 05:34 PM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by mldee View Post
Where is the ntc sensor measuring? Hot or cold side, heat sink, etc? I presume you're using a large enough 12V supply?

My suggestion would probably be to have the sensor measure the cold side of the peltier. This should then command the controller to either heat or cool that side as per the dial setting.

BTW, I have a DSII OSC with attached Peltier unit. You're welcome to borrow it if you wish. My solution in 2009 to making it work well was to put it in my cupboard and buy a QHY8
G'day Mike.

The sensor is attached to the controller via a 1 metre wire. The sensor measures wherever you put it. I've got it velcro'd to the back of the camera body alongside a second sensor that feeds readings straight to my PC/Laptop.

I've done a DSI II mod also - and now have it dropping by about 16-17C (measured inside the case). I reckon that's about as far as I can take that one and hopefully I'll get some use out of it doing some lunar/planetary stuff with a Barlow and suchlike. One day.

As for the suggestion of swapping the polarity, I did think of that but backed off because there was something more fundamental going on - the fan not getting power and not being able to actually set the temp range on the device.

SO, my request for help still stands guys.

Anyone who has used or is using one of these, could you please PM me with some idea of how to use it.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 29-01-2015, 05:43 PM
AndrewJ
Watch me post!

AndrewJ is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,905
Gday Peter
If it was heating vs cooling, i would also swap the polarity on the TEC unit first. It might be the processor that controls it wont start the fan unless it detects it is cooling????

Andrew

Edit
Looking at the other piccies on FleaBay, it appears to be a Willhi model WH7106K
if so, Googling "willhi WH7016K controller" gets links to operating docs.
not marvellous, but it explains the basics
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 29-01-2015, 09:44 PM
glend (Glen)
Registered User

glend is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lake Macquarie
Posts: 7,054
I bought one of those ebay temp controllers and it came with a sheet of instructions.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 30-01-2015, 01:35 AM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Gday Peter
If it was heating vs cooling, i would also swap the polarity on the TEC unit first. It might be the processor that controls it wont start the fan unless it detects it is cooling????

Andrew

Edit
Looking at the other piccies on FleaBay, it appears to be a Willhi model WH7106K
if so, Googling "willhi WH7016K controller" gets links to operating docs.
not marvellous, but it explains the basics
Thanks everyone. Andrew's given me the answer I needed. Appreciate all input though.
Peter
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 30-01-2015, 08:24 AM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by glend View Post
I bought one of those ebay temp controllers and it came with a sheet of instructions.
Glen, thanks. Can you tell me how you have the TEC wired in )i.e. Pins 1 and 2)? I found some instructions on the net but they seem to me to be equivocal as to the way to connect the TEC.

In the instructions, it is said to have, as a feature. what they describe as "Direct connection with TE cooler with automatic electrodes switching for constant temperature control. "

And in the diagram showing the rear panel connections, the polarity for the connectors 1 and 2 is not shown. Instead, there is a note saying "Pin 1 and 2: Connect to TE Cooler: Pin 1 is + and Pin 2 is - while heating. Pin 1 is - and Pin 2 is + while cooling. "

But if the thing features automatic electrode switching, it must assume a certain starting position. My problems with this thing may stem from the fact that I've wired the TEC the wrong way 'round to start with. Can you enlighten?

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 30-01-2015, 09:37 PM
kinetic's Avatar
kinetic (Steve)
ATMer and Saganist

kinetic is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide S.A.
Posts: 2,280
This looks similar Pete,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kqydWLDOcU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQjicdtDVrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6NETjHiaKE
dunno if it helps at all.

Device looks great for the purpose. 0.1C resolution with 1C accuracy.
Perfect!
I might get one just for a play.

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 31-01-2015, 07:23 AM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
This looks similar Pete,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kqydWLDOcU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQjicdtDVrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6NETjHiaKE
dunno if it helps at all.

Device looks great for the purpose. 0.1C resolution with 1C accuracy.
Perfect!
I might get one just for a play.

Steve
Thanks Steve. Yeah, I saw those. Unfortunately, YouTube and Google haven't been able to answer my question so far.

I tried again yesterday and experimented with switching polarity and so forth to no avail. Begging to wonder if I have a dud controller. I've got another couple coming so I'll proceed with caution when they get here.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-02-2015, 12:43 AM
kinetic's Avatar
kinetic (Steve)
ATMer and Saganist

kinetic is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide S.A.
Posts: 2,280
Hi Peter,

not sure if I can help in your progress any more but I managed to
source a very similar unit to yours through my work.
I dug up two types of units, both 'Carel' temp controllers, typically used
in refrigeration units and cold rooms.
http://www.actrol.com.au/Global/Asse...tion-guide.pdf
http://www.systemcontrol.com.au/prod...ure-controller
Carel units seem to be the units that the 'clones' on eBay mimic.

Main difference in mine to yours are they are 240v mains powered
and simply control a relay within the unit, with relay contacts rated at 10A.
all good, except I don't like mixing 240v and probe/sensor/peltier wiring
in the same vicinity whether in a sealed controller box or whatever.

Your unit would be the better option, because it runs from 12V and controls
the peltier with the same 12V.

But to demonstrate the concept of the controller ( which can't
be too different in performance surely) I set it up on my cooled DSI II mono camera.

Tonight was a bit warm with ambient at around 28C so I set the setpoint
of my pelt cooler to 17.5C
In the controller menu I set the differential ( the kick in temp and kick out
temp or delta T) to 1C. Default was 3C.

With that differential I managed to get the cooler kicking out at 17.5C and kicking in at about 19.3C

With a pattern that repeated over a few minutes, this set of temps were
stable.
Note that while the controller differential was only 1C and there was
clearly a range of about 1.8C that is because of the thermal inertia of
my heatsink and cold finger setup.
If I wound down the differential to under 1C, say 0.5C I would probably
get a smaller delta T, hopefully as low as about 1C, which would be great
as a sub taken at only 1C difference should stack well.

Stay tuned...testing this right now.....

edit: result of diff set to 0.5C gave an actual differential due to the thermal
inertia of 1.3C
Result of differential set to 0.2C gave an actual differential of 0.7C!!!
I like it, Pete!

(subs at 2C difference from experience with this cooled DSI II stack fine
but it improves signal to noise if lower)

Now back to your setup.
I think there are a few more things you should check if it doesn't seem to be
working right, that is, before you send it back, but I see you have another
on the way.

Check that your power supply 12V DC can supply at least 4-5A for the peltier. I'm assuming you have anyway.
Check the peltier is still ok on a battery, cold side works, hot side works etc. Sometimes brute force DC can kill peltiers. Sometimes pulse width
modulated DC (as I use) can kill peltiers.

Most importantly, check there are no shorts between hot side and cold side electrically.
By this I mean, the peltier sits as a sandwich between a heatsink and
your camera CCD cold finger.
If the cold finger shares ground with the camera casing then NO part of
the heatsink/ fan assembly can share the same ground. That would be
a short across the peltier.

Some pics attached of my testing tonight.

As a straight out of the box solution to pelt control, I think your
controller will be fantastic, especially as it may demonstrate very fine
control of temp and hopefully a very small differential.
I'll do more testing and see if I can wind down that delta T even more.

Steve
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (pelt1.jpg)
62.2 KB30 views
Click for full-size image (pelt2.jpg)
50.4 KB31 views
Click for full-size image (pelt3.jpg)
64.5 KB28 views
Click for full-size image (pelt4.jpg)
95.2 KB37 views
Click for full-size image (pelt5.jpg)
37.9 KB30 views

Last edited by kinetic; 07-02-2015 at 01:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-02-2015, 05:43 AM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Hi Steve. Thanks for your thorough response. That Carel controller certainly looks like the parent of my EBay product range.

I have done a double-check on the power supply and connectivity issues and they all get a pass grade. And I've checked the operation of the peltier itself - it works fine. I've got some spares coming from China just in case - I've cooked them before.

I've just made up a couple of those Oatley Electronics kits (K140B) but confess to being uncertain about them. Their accompanying blurb says they can be optioned to function either a a switchmode continually switching controller for peltier devices where the duty cycle varies according to the temperature differential OR for an occasional switching controller with hysteresis for use with fridge compressors and heaters - the difference is in a few of the resistors.

The only adjustment is in a variable 2K potentiometer - so the adjustments are pretty coarse. The thermistor used is a 100K at 25C so when it is centered, the range of adjustments is between 10C and 60C. To go lower, changing one of the resistors from 1K down to 560 ohms would bering the lower setpoint down to 0C. One of the kits I've just made up has that swapped resistor in it.

Trouble is, with ambient still in the mid 20s here, I can't get this thing colder than about 12C so I don't know if the switching is happening or not. It's a bit of a mystery.

When those extra units arrive from China - probably in the coming week, I will probably switch back to them and scrap the Oatley units.

It's all academic really because the clouds/moon combination are keeping my obs roof closed and likely to stay that way for a while yet.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-02-2015, 12:05 AM
kinetic's Avatar
kinetic (Steve)
ATMer and Saganist

kinetic is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide S.A.
Posts: 2,280
Peter,

I really hope you have success with this controller!
I'm really pleased with its level of fine differential control.
Much better than any peltier control method I have used so far.
Here is a set tonight with my trusty home-cooled DSI II.
Ambient was 33C, setpoint was 17.5C. Differential set to 0.2C
The controller kept it within a 0.7C delta for two hours.
Focus a little off, but proof of concept. Very happy! I can't wait
for some cooler nights with better seeing.

Steve
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (07feb2015_carel_controller.jpg)
147.0 KB29 views
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-02-2015, 05:21 PM
pmrid's Avatar
pmrid (Peter)
Ageing badly.

pmrid is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cloudy, light-polluted Bribie Is.
Posts: 3,678
Thanks Steve.
I've just been having another play with it - the EBay number - and have been looking at the available menu settings - which includes a heating hysteresis and a cooling hysteresis. The default values were each 5C but I've reset them to 1C (no smaller units available). But I'm not sure I fully understand what hysteresis means in this context. I assume it's a tendency for the thing in question to keep heating or cooling after a setpoint has been reached - like a tendency to overshoot the set mark - but I am unclear about what these settings will actually do.

Can you throw any light on it?

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-02-2015, 07:11 PM
kinetic's Avatar
kinetic (Steve)
ATMer and Saganist

kinetic is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide S.A.
Posts: 2,280
Hi Pete,

I'm not 100% certain but I think the concept of differential and hysteresis in
the case of these controllers may be the same.
I haven't read the instructions completely, so I'm not sure if in
this case it has a hysteresis effect built in as some sort of fuzzy logic to
monitor and adjust through the history of what occurs over a few
switch on/switch off cycles.
There are two definitions of hysteresis, one is feedback adjustment through the history of what has occurred previously.
The second is simply the loop shape that repeats over time in a graph,
the factors of the shape of that graph being switch on temp/ switch off temp, and the efficiency and thermal momentum of your cooling that
widen or narrow the parts of that loop.
See hysteresis on Wiki.

Don't forget, there is also possibly a Delay setting on yours:

In the case of a coolroom the compressor (or your peltier in this case) won't actually start cooling for 30 secs (default)
I'm assuming that this is a regulation for power authorities in the event of a power failure so the whole city's fridges don't try to run when the grid
comes back on!

I changed this delay to zero so it cools as soon as I turn it on.

Lower ambient tonight so I set the temp for 10.C, ambient 20C, dewpoint 5c
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (09feb2015.jpg)
82.9 KB16 views

Last edited by kinetic; 10-02-2015 at 12:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 02:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement