Triple satellites spotted

[thorsdad]

Hi guys,

just spent a great week away in Churchill in the Latrobe Valley in Victoria under some much darker skies than at home. Took the 8inch dob along and checked out the sky. It was just great looking with the naked eye and binos. The LMC and SMC were easily seen with the naked eye, and the Milky way stood out brightly, as did The Pleiades and others...

Anyway, on Friday night the 28/12/07 I was grabbing a drink when Sharon and a couple of the guys were shouting that there were 3 satellites together, high in the sky travelling from a westerly to easterly direction at about 22:45.
We kept a lookout on the following night the 29/12/07 at around 22:45 and there they were again, this time I saw them. Even higher in the sky now, 3 of them very close together travelling from a wsw to ese direction. I have never seen more than 1 sat in a similar vicinity, but these were very close, possibly at different altitudes, but to the naked eye virtually in the same spot. I have checked heavens above for possible satellites but to no avail.
Anyone know which ones these may have been??

Cheers

[thorsdad]

Wow,

I just read Iceagecoming's post in observational astro section. Yes, this is what we saw, and also the metors. Awesome stuff. I love this 'Dynamic' part of astronomy where objects are moving and shooting etc. Cool.

[Jarrod]

its not a coincidence, the three (military) satellites are actually moving in a triangle formation to more accuratly calculate the position of objects such as ships. several of these 'tri-satellites' (not really called that, but sounds good ) are in orbit, launched in the late 80's and early 90's by the US. The US actually denied there existance until the early 90's.

late 2006 I observed one formation for about a week. each night the satellites would appear about 50minutes earlier until it was too early in the evening to see them due to twilight.

Jarrod.

[leon]

Never heard of them, let alone seen them, must keep an eye out for them some nights, sounds like a good view.

Leon

[Jazza (Jay)]

I saw them just yesterday through binoculars in the same field of view as 8p Tuttle Was an awesome sight.

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by leon

Never heard of them, let alone seen them, must keep an eye out for them some nights, sounds like a good view.

Leon

If it is the three I'm thinking of I first saw them, or something exactly like them, late in 1996. And, not only do they fly in formation, but I swear on a stack of Norton's, and so would my friend who also saw them, that they can change course as well! And we saw them change course, by about five degrees! Had us gob smacked for hours, and the following weeks!

Found out a little about them since. The story goes that the US navy owns the trio, and they are apparently used for tracking submarines with some cute water penetrating long wave length radar. And because there is three of them they do their own trig calculations to determine the depth of the submarine. Pretty neat hey! Sort of like active GPS you don't want!

Reason being, some of the newer Russian Subs are constructed entirely of titanium, with vibration dampened twin hulls, and with several feet of nice and stealthy radar and sound blocking acoustic tiles all over them. They also are capable of running at depths of over 900m. Which apparently makes them damn hard to find by conventional methods, as they aren't magnetic, don't make much noise, and absorb active sonar like a sponge.

While I'm at it rumors are that because the Russian subs have a nuclear power station that would be happy to provide electricity to a city of several hundred thousand proliteriat, hooked up solely to a BIG electric motor (read MEGAWATTS), these subs are capable of speeds in excess of 160 KMH at depths of nearly a kilometer. I might also add, that rumor also has it that the Russian sub Kursk was sunk in a collision with a US sub because the Kursk had on board the next generation of Russian ROCKET POWERED HYDRASONIC CAVITAION BUBBLE TORPEDOS, capable of speeds in excess of 500KMH: UNDERWATER!

And that's why just weeks after the Kursk sunk mysteriously the US government gave the Russians BILLIONS OF DOLLARS of aid!

Cheap really, compared to the Reds going to war to get their stollen torpedos back!

[Outbackmanyep]

Sounds like Hunt for Red October!

[koputai (Jason)]

Lots of netlore here I reckon.
For more realistic information, try this:
http://www.satobs.org/noss.html

Cheers,
Jason.

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by koputai

Lots of netlore here I reckon.
For more realistic information, try this:
http://www.satobs.org/noss.html

Cheers,
Jason.

You might want to read this article... Titled...

"Sensitivity of Satellite Altimetry Data Assimilation on a Naval Anti- Submarine Warfare Weapon System"

http://www.stormingmedia.us/73/7327/A732724.html

And in particular the part that reads..."The MODAS fields differ in that one uses altimeter data assimilated from three satellites..."

If you want to read the rest it will cost you $25.

About Russian Subs....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-278

Read the part about...

"Evgeniy Dmitrievich Chernov, was made a Hero of the Soviet Union for diving to a depth of more than 1300 meters (4265 feet)."

And..."one 190 MW OK-650 b-3 pressurised water reactor, two 45000 shp steam turbines, one shaft"

And that sub was launched way back in 1983. I can only assume they have made more powerful subs since then?

I'd like to know the specs for this puppy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graney_class_submarine

Check this out too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_tile

And how about rocket powered torpedos? Its called the Shkval-E underwater rocket...

http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_f...1109_1_n.shtml

Truth is stranger than fiction....

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by koputai

Lots of netlore here I reckon.
For more realistic information, try this:
http://www.satobs.org/noss.html

Cheers,
Jason.

Got a bit more on the trio...

From this site.

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/...ss_000114.html

Supposedly from Space Flight News in 1999.




"Three watching eyes

This space project is so secret that even its official name remains a topic of debate, so observers dubbed it the "Naval Ocean Surveillance System," or NOSS.
The US currently operates three sets of spy satellites, launched consecutively in 1990, 1991 and 1996. These satellites orbit pole-to-pole in groups of three at an altitude of 1,100 kilometers, monitoring the position, speed and direction of all military ships at sea by detecting radio and radar signals and then triangulating the point of origin..
The components of the trio orbit separately under Newton's Laws, and are not technically "in formation." However, their orbits are planned to crisscross during every circuit, being widest apart over ocean areas of greatest interest.
The project's Top Secret name is reportedly "Parcae," the Roman name for the three somber, all-seeing goddesses who observe human activity and determine justice for individuals. If so, perhaps they call the satellites "Clotho," "Lachesis" and "Atropos" at the top secret Parcae "mission control center."
The visible secret
In the case of the two English observers, Ed Cameron, an amateur astronomer in central Texas, found the precise answer -- NOSS satellites flying overhead at the time and same direction as in their reports.
Spall had seen what Cameron calls "the NOSS 2-3 trio," and Thompson had been observing "the NOSS 2-2 trio."
Amateur spacewatchers have known about these objects for a long timer. But there was some debate whether the satellites would be visible to the naked eye.
Professor Brian Hunter of Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario has photographed NOSS 2-2 passing through the constellation Lyra in late 1997.
"This pass was seen [with the] naked eye by many in the Northeastern US," he noted when posting the image to the internet."

[koputai (Jason)]

I wasn't doubting the stealth stuff, or even the depth issues (I personally build equipment that tests to over 600 metres depth), but what sounds like basic bulldroppings is:

tracking submarines with some cute water penetrating long wave length radar. And because there is three of them they do their own trig calculations to determine the depth of the submarine. Pretty neat hey! Sort of like active GPS you don't want!

There's no way radar will EVER penetrate to even a fraction of the depths stated. They actually use passive interception of radio/radar for location of surface shipping.

these subs are capable of speeds in excess of 160 KMH

Umm, no, even your quoted source says 26 to 30 knots, which is around 50 kmh.

Cheers,
Jason.

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by koputai

I wasn't doubting the stealth stuff, or even the depth issues (I personally build equipment that tests to over 600 metres depth), but what sounds like basic bulldroppings is:


There's no way radar will EVER penetrate to even a fraction of the depths stated. They actually use passive interception of radio/radar for location of surface shipping.


Umm, no, even your quoted source says 26 to 30 knots, which is around 50 kmh.

Cheers,
Jason.

Hey, did you bother to read any of this...?


"Sensitivity of Satellite Altimetry Data Assimilation on a Naval Anti- Submarine Warfare Weapon System"

http://www.stormingmedia.us/73/7327/A732724.html

And in particular the part that reads..."The MODAS fields differ in that one uses altimeter data assimilated from three satellites..."

If you want to read the rest it will cost you $25.

So, how do you think a satellite can determine ASW data, via altimetry from passive radar and radio detection? And why would a sub trying to avoid detection be broadcasting its location via radar and radio?

[koputai (Jason)]

I'm not interested in getting in to a fight here, especially on a topic way off that of these forums.

YOU said:
"used for tracking submarines with some cute water penetrating long wave length radar."
Which is fanciful.

YOU said:
"these subs are capable of speeds in excess of 160 KMH"
Which is just plain bullsh**.

Let alone all the Kursk and associated conspiracy theory stuff.

My side of this discussion ends here.

Cheers,
Jason.

[fringe_dweller]

don't forget theres other multiple's besides the military ones

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/120383_index_0_m.html

[duncan]

If i were a super power i would not be letting anyone know what the hell i had in my arsenal. I dont believe for one minute we have any idea of just what they really have. The damn bombs are enough to put the wind up anyone.
I'll go back to watching the clouds rolling in now!,LOL

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by fringe_dweller

don't forget theres other multiple's besides the military ones

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/120383_index_0_m.html

Nice pickup fringe-dweller. I've never seen them, but will be on the lookout.
The trio I first saw in late December 1996.

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by koputai

I'm not interested in getting in to a fight here, especially on a topic way off that of these forums.

YOU said:
"used for tracking submarines with some cute water penetrating long wave length radar."
Which is fanciful.

YOU said:
"these subs are capable of speeds in excess of 160 KMH"
Which is just plain bullsh**.

Let alone all the Kursk and associated conspiracy theory stuff.

My side of this discussion ends here.

Cheers,
Jason.

Here is an answer to fanciful for you...
<A href="http://www.agu.org/cgi-bin/SFgate/SFgate?&listenv=table&multiple=1&ra nge=1&directget=1&application=sm99& database=%2Fdata%2Fepubs%2Fwais%2Fi ndexes%2Fsm99%2Fsm99&maxhits=200&=" OS51A-03">http://www.agu.org/cgi-bin/SFgate/SFgate?&listenv=table&multiple=1&ra nge=1&directget=1&application=sm99& database=%2Fdata%2Fepubs%2Fwais%2Fi ndexes%2Fsm99%2Fsm99&maxhits=200&=" OS51A-03"

I'd pay attention to the part that reads...

"In the meantime, our vast ocean floors... lag farther and farther behind, as ships ensonify the seafloor at meters per second, vs km per second for electromagnetic-imaging spacecraft. The GEOSAT and ERS radar altimetry missions have produced the best-resolution, homogenous global-ocean images, revealing the geoid down to spatial wavelengths of ca 15 km, a vast improvement over previous images."

Check this out as well...
http://earth.esa.int/workshops/venic...ticipants/431/

Especially the part...
"It was the ERS missions, however, which provided the first altimetric coverage of the high Arctic that allowed the first views of the polar ocean floor and of a highly dynamic sea ice cover to be revealed."

I can only imagine what a purpose built milsat designed souly for looking for subs would be capable of, but I bet it does a damn good job!

Now about nuke subs being faster than your average family car.

At 900m deep there is 1294 PSI pressure on the hull! This pressure, although great, allows some remarkable things to happen. All that pressure allows the sub to avoid propellor cavitation, which is the main source of position giving away noise. The deeper they run, the less prone a subs prop, or its hull, is likely to break from laminar flow, and higher surface drag, and then create turbulent flow and cavitation noise... Run deep = run fast.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

As for my information of submarines being capable of speeds in excess of 160 kmh, check this thread, and any others you can find....

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3701

Some there report Akula Class subs being recorded doing 93KMH, several years ago.

And if a Tuna fish can do 50 knots, then a new design nuke sub with maybe a 150+ MW powerplant, and laminar flow hull design, with a hull pressure of 1294 PSI on it to help that laminar flow, and prevent prop cavitation, it only has to find another 67KMH to get to 100MPH.

If you read some of the articles some guys are forwarding numbers of 100 knots, which would be 185KMH.

I might also mention that the US spy plane the SR71 Blackbird was classified and remained utterly top secret from the time it was designed and first flew in the 1950s, to when it first came out of the closet in the 1970s. I might also add that even though the SR71 Blackbird spy plane was decommisioned close to ten years ago its maximum speed STILL REMAINS CLASSIFIED. And, more importantly its a damn sight easier to hide a submarine and its top speed than it is an aircrafts. If you haven't noticed.

I love your thinking mate. If you don't think its possible nobody else can have done it.

I think more on the lines of nothing is impossible, it just takes lots longer and costs more. Which is perfect for the military.

[koputai (Jason)]

I managed to spot a NOSS triplet last night!
It was the NOSS 7 triplet, about magnitude 8, just visible in my 8x56 bioculars here in Sydney. Unfortunately I could only see 2 of the 3 satellites in the bunch.
These satellites aren't close enough to each other to see them all in one field of view, but rather you can pan around and see them.
If you want to try it yourself, the satellite numbers on Heavens-Above are 16623, 16624, and 16631 for this triplet.

Cheers,
Jason.