Australia Day attended by growing controversy

[AndrewJ]

Gday Ben

The threat of Chinese ownership of rural properties is overblown. It will ebb and flow with crop prices.

I think that prices dont come into it in many cases.
The chinese upper middle class ( probably bigger than the whole Aust population ) are willing to pay way more than us for "clean green" produce. By owning the farms ( very specific high value ones ), you will soon see that the crops from these will never touch the Aust market. It will be exported direct and we will lose out on all fronts, as the value add will go to the owners.

Go to an auction in the inner east from Balwyn to Glen Waverley (an expensive part of the city), and you could well be in Singapore.

You mean Shanghai
I have lived in that area ( inner east ) for 25 years and it has changed dramatically.
Some real estate agents now have 90% chinese staff and brochures with no english in them at all. One reason i was told they buy in this region ( other than good capital appreciation ) is it gets a place at one of the good schools, and they will spend what is required on a house to get that spot for their kids.

Andrew

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

This has to be (and already has been) acknowledged.
Where we get into serious trouble is where we treat one racial group as different to everyone else. This must never be allowed to happen.
Whilst serious wrongs were done in the past, today is today, and everyone must be treated equal. Anything else is just racism, no matter how you try and camouflage it.

If only it could be true, that all are treated at equals, but alas, reality intervenes and it is not. I was at a taxi rank recently and progressed easily from no 5 in the que to no 2. However, the new, number 1 was an Indigenous man and the next 2 taxis slowed, looked and then drove away.

I have also heard many stories of Indigenous people having trouble renting a property.

Our democratically Government through positive discrimination provides assistance to people who are disadvantaged and/or have a history of being downtrodden, and that make me feel proud to be an Australian.

[Eratosthenes (Peter)]

A summary of the massacre sites identified in Western Victoria between 1803 to 1859 is given in detail by Ian D Clarke's research report

Scars in the landscape - A register of massacre sites in Western Victoria, 1803-1859
Ian D Clarke
http://nationalunitygovernment.org/p...dscape.pdf.pdf

[xelasnave]

I have heard it said a country can be judged by how it treats its old people and we have the oldest people on the planet.
Is there not a case for preserving their dignity.
Whatever it takes.
I think it may be important that everyone comptemplates the terrible things that have been done, if for no other reason to provide a context for the confusion sourounding Australia day and moreover the difficulty of dealing with the elephant in the room whatever you perceive that elephant to be.
There are some who understandably are happy to move on and we must, however for those who understandably dwell upon past horrors we must be understanding.
I have visted a house many times and on the road there is a stone memorial of a horrible episode which I wont repeat, but each time I drove by I was reminded and so have developed a scence of loss.
But there is nothing I can do to change that past but I can at least remember.
Its not racist to give recognition to the fact we have an extrodinary case of the oldest human and we just want to assimilate them. We should not if that destroys their culture.
This is not a matter of assembling your facts and stamp out a reality. We can only try and look without denial and be understanding how the horrors of the past wont leave them.
There are many who know many of these stones that I infrequently passed, and for others memorials and other triggers are often present that wont let those horrors easily pass.
We should not be dismissive of folk who find it hard to move on.
Alex

[xelasnave]

We all feel threatened by the future and get an uneasy feeling if we think change will happen.
As to real estate, its the best thing we have to sell.
Be happy folk from os want to buy up.
Thats the name of the game.. You build a kingdom and get the rest of the world to put money in so you can run your game.
Buy some cheap acres and take advantage of a future world market.
Alex

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by Tropo-Bob

If only it could be true, that all are treated at equals, but alas, reality intervenes and it is not. I was at a taxi rank recently and progressed easily from no 5 in the que to no 2. However, the new, number 1 was an Indigenous man and the next 2 taxis slowed, looked and then drove away.

I have also heard many stories of Indigenous people having trouble renting a property.
Our democratically Government through positive discrimination provides assistance to people who are disadvantaged and/or have a history of being downtrodden, and that make me feel proud to be an Australian.

One type of discrimination does not justify another. There is no such thing as 'positive' racial discrimination. You are picking out one race and discriminating against all others.
This is a democracy, and as long as you aren't promoting harm, it is legal to support and practice certain kinds of racial discrimination.
You may be proud of this fact. I am not.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

You mean Shanghai
I have lived in that area ( inner east ) for 25 years and it has changed dramatically.
Some real estate agents now have 90% chinese staff and brochures with no english in them at all. One reason i was told they buy in this region ( other than good capital appreciation ) is it gets a place at one of the good schools, and they will spend what is required on a house to get that spot for their kids.

Andrew

As far as the make up of the population, I still think Singapore is a good comparison. Many Chinese and Indians, with a few Europeans and other Asians.
I live in the mentioned area, and now get handwritten letters from
Chinese investors/investment companies. The local agent now lists in Chinese as well as English. Balwyn High School is now roughly 90% Chinese. So much so that I would not feel comfortable sending my kids there. This kind of thing is often sold as being 'multiculturalism', but when it is just one country completely dominating, that's a buy out, not multiculturalism. There's no other phrase for it.
This is all government policy, and for the most part legal. But we need to have a serious think about what we want Australia to look like in 50 years time.

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I have heard it said a country can be judged by how it treats its old people and we have the oldest people on the planet.
Is there not a case for preserving their dignity.
Whatever it takes.
I think it may be important that everyone comptemplates the terrible things that have been done, if for no other reason to provide a context for the confusion sourounding Australia day and moreover the difficulty of dealing with the elephant in the room whatever you perceive that elephant to be.
There are some who understandably are happy to move on and we must, however for those who understandably dwell upon past horrors we must be understanding.
I have visted a house many times and on the road there is a stone memorial of a horrible episode which I wont repeat, but each time I drove by I was reminded and so have developed a scence of loss.
But there is nothing I can do to change that past but I can at least remember.
Its not racist to give recognition to the fact we have an extrodinary case of the oldest human and we just want to assimilate them. We should not if that destroys their culture.
This is not a matter of assembling your facts and stamp out a reality. We can only try and look without denial and be understanding how the horrors of the past wont leave them.
There are many who know many of these stones that I infrequently passed, and for others memorials and other triggers are often present that wont let those horrors easily pass.
We should not be dismissive of folk who find it hard to move on.
Alex

Spot on Alex!

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

On a side note, what we know as the nation of Australia came into being in 1901. Prior to that it did not exist. There were separate colonies, and many separate Aboriginal nations even earlier, but none were called Australia.
Given that the nation of Australia came into being in 1901, doesn't that make every person whose ancestors were born here prior to that date indigenous?

Well actually it doesn't. Being indigenous means taking on features that are specific to that area. Think of it this way, dingos are indigenous to Australia, but dogs are not. It doesn't matter if the European-bred dogs were here before 1901, they have not taken on significant features that makes them notable to this area.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by Tropo-Bob

Well actually it doesn't. Being indigenous means taking on features that are specific to that area. Think of it this way, dingos are indigenous to Australia, but dogs are not. It doesn't matter if the European-bred dogs were here before 1901, they have not taken on significant features that makes them notable to this area.

Pretty sure dogs are not aware of federation.

But we'll go with your example. The dingo came over from Indonesia. Best guess is a few thousand years ago. They are in every way a dog, except for the bark (which the common dog ancestor wolf also does not do). Is there any proof that they changed after arrival due to features of the area? By that logic, the Blue Healer is indigenous, as are other Australian bred dogs, who were selectively bred for use in the Australian environment.

The Maori may not be the original inhabitants of NZ. They settled roughly 1250-1300AD. This wasn't long before Christopher Colombus showed up in the new world. So are the Maori indigenous? If so, given the timescale, are the first pilgrims to New England also indigenous?

It's a very unclear, arbitrary and very political attribute. This kind of thing is yet another reason why racist discrimination is a horrible thing for any government to tolerate, let alone embrace. Our government sanctions, embraces, and funds racial discrimination. And they are proud of it.

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Pretty sure dogs are not aware of federation.



The Maori may not be the original inhabitants of NZ. They settled roughly 1250-1300AD. This wasn't long before Christopher Colombus showed up in the new world. So are the Maori indigenous? If so, given the timescale, are the first pilgrims to New England also indigenous?

It's a very unclear, arbitrary and very political attribute. This kind of thing is yet another reason why racist discrimination is a horrible thing for any government to tolerate, let alone embrace. Our government sanctions, embraces, and funds racial discrimination. And they are proud of it.

Ben, I had a curiosity in how modern NZ started. We hear so much of Australia Day, I just wondered if there was a NZ equivalent. Fortunately, I was given information that allowed me to satisfy my curiosity.

On the issue of Government funds though; good governments care that every citizen has a chance to have a have a reasonable life. By improving their citizens' life-chances, we have a better nation, a more prosperous nation and a less crime ridden nation. There are some serious issues in society and racial issues is only but one of many. If no effort is made to improve upon these, those issues will still be here for an awful long time.

Still, I think we will have to agree to disagree, because I strongly suspect that we have very different views on what are the serious issues and how they should be approached.

[keioffice (James)]

some very good points raised in here

[Stonius (Markus)]

But you wouldn't call a Kelpie, or Governor Phillip 'indigenous' and expect to be understood. There is a common understanding of the word that precludes and precedes European settlement. Otherwise, you might as well call *me indigenous because I was born here!

Markus

[PCH (Paul)]

You're all clever people I'm sure, yet it's clear that hardly anyone agrees with the next person. And yet each person is convinced they're right.

Imagine for a moment, if this is how difficult it is discussing matters on just a forum, how difficult would it be for Foreign Ministers etc to go and liaise with their foreign counterparts to talk effectively when war seems on the horizon.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by Tropo-Bob

Ben, I had a curiosity in how modern NZ started. We hear so much of Australia Day, I just wondered if there was a NZ equivalent. Fortunately, I was given information that allowed me to satisfy my curiosity.

On the issue of Government funds though; good governments care that every citizen has a chance to have a have a reasonable life. By improving their citizens' life-chances, we have a better nation, a more prosperous nation and a less crime ridden nation. There are some serious issues in society and racial issues is only but one of many. If no effort is made to improve upon these, those issues will still be here for an awful long time.

Still, I think we will have to agree to disagree, because I strongly suspect that we have very different views on what are the serious issues and how they should be approached.

Me too. I find it very interesting that NZ could have been federated, and WA may not have been. How easily history could have been very different.

On your second paragraph, I think we actually agree. There's no issue with helping out people who clearly need it. We are pretty good at this compared to many other countries.

It is when who their ancestor was is the driving factor for who gets the help, as opposed to individual circumstances, that you cross a moral threshold (in my opinion).

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Having a head of state that is the queen may be unacceptable to some, but at least the position cannot be "bought".

Andrew

Dude... they - (royalty) were bought centuries ago.

[AndrewJ]

OK if you want to go that way, it was a once off purchase as the end result of a series of wars and machinations. ( sounds like the other thread )
Its not 100s of millions per person each election.

Andrew

[LewisM]

This horse is already at the glue factory...

[Sol-Skysailor (Sol)]

This thread curiously has parallels in the other thread….. LOL (nervous laughs).

Maybe the poster might have ‘no offence intended’, by their text quoted below,
but please reflect on what we take as valid, normal, funny, and OK….(since nobody AFAIK objected to it)!?

[QUOTE from this thread]
Imagine how things may have fared if the ---- or ---- had landed first,
- the indigenous race may well have ended up on the menu!

no offence intended to anyone.
[/QUOTE]

What label do we stigmatise on these named people?

Would we call this whole country whole race whole shade cannibals: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/stefano-bri...prison-1605063

Similarly would we like it if people say ‘In Australia you’d get burnt alive?’ Would we like it if we had a label stuck on us ‘these ------- people bring diseases’? Would we like it if daily we become targets of labels suspicions accusations like 'the threat' 'the invasion' 'terrorists' 'confronting' or abuses or preconception mistreatment? Would we like it if our children get beaten up or socially tormented? Would we like it if posts here at a mention of us ‘the Ab----‘ get labelled ‘drunk, dirty, handouts‘?

Positive progress 2017 could be to replace preconceptions and insults, with kindness.


[Reading Mark Twain’s Huck Finn 1884:
“it wasn’t good of you to say it. If you was in his place it would make you ashamed; and so you oughtn’t to say a thing to another person that will make them feel ashamed.”

“The thing is for you to treat him kind.”]

[Sol-Skysailor (Sol)]

The best time to discuss this is perhaps when calm,
not during the heat of the Day.
And these events take months in planning ahead for 2018.

An earlier post (please discuss the topic, not the persons)
offered a view that

“better it was the ‘Brits’….” “should call it a Thank You Day”

Is this not just like (as an analogy) saying in a domestic violence case,

“Stop complaining! You’re lucky I only beat you 5 times today.
xyz next door beat theirs 10 times.”?

Then “Don’t call this a sorry day, you should call it a Thank You day
in gratitude for being punched only 5 times! And not quite dead.”

And how would you know what it would have been like if the Dutch
or another crowd cultivated and irrigated here?

Only refuting the reasoning,
hoping for logic, reasoning, filters, and empathy to be part of the education system.

I believe it’s good to acknowledge past wrongs that happened,
happened to our people, to us as a nation,
(caused by many factors that continue to affect most beings now)
AND it’s good to work out what best to do next.

I reckon…. Not a sorry day, not a thank you Brits day, but a mutual celebration of peace day.