Waste of life and potential

[graham.hobart (Graham stevens)]

I admire the honesty of posters and glad I started it, as it is a mirror on our society, how we look at each other, how we look at crime in general, and how we compute the recent events.
I thank those of you for being honest, up front and sometimes gladiatorial about what is a contentious subject.
There is no judgement here, as we are lucky we share the love of dark skies and sometimes solitude, as our narcotic.
I have been on this website for a few years now and mostly I have had positive experiences. Sometimes we forget how we extend our selves in the outer world- one not obsessed by filters, sensors, aperture or clear sky index.
I had a conversation tonight with a friend who is quite worldly, is an artist who sells his paintings for thousands of dollars yet bucks and puts his hand up over his eyes over a discussion of light speed and red shift.
We my friends (I'm talking to all of you posters), are the arbiters of something wonderful. Share this gift.
And for the hopeless romantics, I started this post with a quote and I'll end it (I hope) with this one.....
From 1818
John Keats
Probably a lament for those sleep starved astronomers.....
"O Magic sleep!, O comfortable bird,
That broodest O' er that troubled sea of mind.
Till it is hushed and smooth"
Let that put these things to rest
Graham

[mr bruess]

yes drugs is bad and the bali duo were punished. But they never ever deserved to die. they paid for their crimes with 10 years jail and changed for the better. one a pastor and another a painter.
Drugs is a choice. people take it by their own volition. drug addicts are not forced to take them.
In my opinion they were murdederd by the Indonesian state. The punishment didn't fit the crime.
if they were in Australia they would have lived and been free men by now.But due to the advice of the Australian Federal Police they are now dead.
The bali bombers got a lighter sentence and are free now.

[Hans Tucker (Hans)]

Originally Posted by mr bruess

......
The bali bombers got a lighter sentence and are free now.

Check your facts....Mukias, Amrozi, Inam Samudra were executed in 2008. Others linked were later tracked down and killed by police in shoot outs. Only one or two minor players were their involvement couldn't be fully established were freed.

[Kunama]

Hans, this is the internet, why confuse things here with facts. but you are correct, on 9 Nov 2008 at 12.15am those 3 ceased to be a threat to society and rightly so.

As for the 'Bali9"
If indeed that AFP had refused to follow the directives and waited for these criminals to arrive in Australia, they would now all be free and probably doing their next importation. Which is better for society?

[LewisM]

I agree Matt, but does the crime justify execution? Long/life imprisonment and hard labour, YES, but death? No.

[Kunama]

Perhaps not, but it is their law, their country and perhaps the initial denial of any involvement sealed the fate of these two. Had they accepted responsibility right at the time they were caught and at that time shown some remorse they would probably not have suffered the fate they did.

As you know, the warnings at Indonesia's gateway are clear and unambiguous, one cannot miss the large red and yellow signs at any airport in that country.

I also think that Australia pleading for clemency for the two Australians was a mistake, the pleas should have been for clemency for all nine set to be legally executed that day.

[LewisM]

I believe the Australian Government has made a monumental mistake in their actions, that will have Australian-Indonesia relationship implications for some time.

So typical of a media driven show pony government. Act now, bear the burden of faux-pas later.

[astroron (Ron)]

Australian Indonesian relations are never very close,even if the politicians paint them as very friendly at times.
President Joko Widodo is not the most popular president and is also beholden to people behind the scenes who would not be very happy if he had granted clemency, considering it was to an Australian and also it was his mantra in coming to office to be tough on drugs with the death penalty being the final sentence.
Australian governments for many years have antagonized Indonesia in many ways,Timor,Dumping refugees on Indonesian shores, boof headed language from our current prime minister toward Indonesia over the last couple of years have not helped to improved the relationship one Iota.
I don't approve of the Death Penalty,But when you flagrantly disregard the laws of the country not once but a couple of times and know the consequences if caught then you should except the verdict of the court.
One other thing,their are another seven young people spending a big part of their lives locked up in jail because of the actions of these two men.
Sympathy for family and friends,but I don't think that these two people deserved any more special treatment than any other countries,including Indonesian citizens in being subject to the rule of law in Indonesia.
Cheers

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Gday Ben

It was more a metaphor for everyone has a price where they will do stuff for profit if they think there is a good chance they will get away with it.
They were part of a capitalist driven system of supply and demand.
The people who buy the product buy it willingly ( at first ).

That's actually an argument in favour of what Indonesia did. The recidivism rate for drug offences is amongst the highest of all crimes.

The product is still there. The victims are still there. The 'price' is still there.

If these two had been charged in Australia, they'd be free by now and back out dealing death.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Ben

The product is still there. The victims are still there. The 'price' is still there.

Sorry but to me they arent truly "victims" ( like the bombing victims etc), they buy drugs willingly, even after being warned.
Sure they may get hooked over time ( like smokers and alcoholics ), but they go in with their eyes wide open.
Arbitrarily executing a courier does nothing, and never has.
All it really does is reduce jail costs.
What we need to do is find out why people buy drugs and remove the market. Cant see that happening based on human history.

If these two had been charged in Australia, they'd be free by now and back out dealing death.

Just like the tobacco and alcohol industries ?????
Im sorry but i dont discriminate between the three, they all can result in death of the user, and alcohol, more than anything else can result in the death of many others.

Also, if Indonesia is deemed so high and morally mighty, as it has signs up everywhere, why didnt corby etc get executed????
Why only a select few, and why now and what is the criteria???
Its obviously not just trafficking drugs that gets you necked.
If Indonesia executed everyone caught with drugs, i could understand it, but leaving it vague means people will take chances and judges can take bribes. It will be really interesting to see how far the allegations re the judges asking for bribes for a "better" result will go.
As per before, i totally disagree with what these people did,
but using arbitrary executions ( and even worse as a political statement ) isnt the answer.

Andrew

[Eratosthenes (Peter)]

Originally Posted by BPO

But... But... Aussies like Americans!

Therein lies the difference. Right?

...are you saying Australia is a hypocritical and racist state?

Picks and chooses when it demands moral principles be applied, and when justice and freedom are values to be defended? Both domestically and on the global stage?

[Kunama]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Gday Ben

.............
Arbitrarily executing a courier does nothing, and never has.
............
............ if Indonesia is deemed so high and morally mighty, as it has signs up everywhere, why didnt corby etc get executed????
Why only a select few, and why now and what is the criteria???
............
Andrew

There is a big distinction between a courier who is found with cannabis and someone who plans a crime and then enlists a number of couriers to carry 8.3 kilos of heroin.

[astroron (Ron)]

[QUOTE= Also, if Indonesia is deemed so high and morally mighty, as it has signs up everywhere, why didnt corby etc get executed????
Why only a select few, and why now and what is the criteria???
Its obviously not just trafficking drugs that gets you necked.
If Indonesia executed everyone caught with drugs, i could understand it, but leaving it vague means people will take chances and judges can take bribes. It will be really interesting to see how far the allegations re the judges asking for bribes for a "better" result will go. .[/QUOTE]

Indonesia is ruled by a different government than when Corby etc was sentenced, also these people were sentenced to death 10 years ago,but the government of the day chose to not proceed with it,but they were still on death row.
President Widodo and his government had said that the death penalty for drugs would be carried out and the would be no clemency for anyone,which up to now has proven fact.
Cheers

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

I think you will find there is a slight difference, the Bali nine altogether there were nine people convicted of those only two receive the death penalty as they were the organisers for the drug couriering.

Also Corbi, The drugs were found in a bag And not on her body and it was considered that it was possible that it was a set up. That was considered to be the reason why there was so much opposition in that particular case as that was considered that baggage handlers were culpable in the importation of drugs. The case was quite strange because it is not economic all to import drugs into Indonesia instead only export drugs out of Indonesia.

The two that have been executed also decided not to implicate the major drug ring within Indonesia where they got the drugs from as well. So I suspect there is a lot of extenuating circumstances in relation to this case.

I believe that the other seven have been sentenced to a long time in prison but not a lot has been mentioned about those. Indonesia could still change their mind in relation to those.

Originally Posted by astroron

Indonesia is ruled by a different government than when Corby etc was sentenced, also these people were sentenced to death 10 years ago,but the government of the day chose to not proceed with it,but they were still on death row.
President Widodo and his government had said that the death penalty for drugs would be carried out and the would be no clemency for anyone,which up to now has proven fact.
Cheers

[AndrewJ]

There is a big distinction between a courier who is found with cannabis and someone who plans a crime

Fully agree, so give em a longer and or harder sentence.
If you dont let em out, they cant reoffend.
Having an arbitrary "you live, you die" line is whats in question for me.

I remember seeing an interview of an English POW coming out of a japanese hell hole and when he was asked if he wanted to kill the worst of the guards once he was free, he replied that it would make him as bad as them.

Andrew

[astroron (Ron)]

I keep on reading that the death penalty doesn't stop people still trafficking in drugs,well if that don't stop them then long prison sentences won't make any difference either.
This might sound callous, but if you give them life or long sentences they have to be clothed and fed and looked after for anything upto say 50 years, that is a hell of a lot of money.
The prison population in the USA is well over two and a quarter million people in prison as of 2011,can you imagine the cost.?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarce..._United_States

I think there will be a few more death penalties carried out in Indonesia before the this year is out.

[Kunama]

Not sure if you're aware or not that during these proceedings in fact 6 of the 'Bali 9' were sentenced to death, Chen, Rush, Nguyen and Norman as well as Chan and Sukumaran.

This death sentence for Chen, Nguyen and Norman was later reduced to life imprisonment by the Appeal Court Judges who decided to spare their lives. Rush later successfully appealed and his death sentence was reduced to life in prison.

I am not familiar with Indonesian customs but it seems that an appeal is treated almost as an insult to the Judges' ruling and can often result in a harsher sentence should the appeal have no merit.

[Kunama]

Obviously the focus is on Indonesia for daring to enforce their own laws in their own country but little notice is given to the fact that the death penalty is carried out in Japan more often than Indonesia, or that there 12 other Australians in custody at the moment who are likely to suffer the same fate.

I personally don't think that Indonesia subscribes to Maconochie's ideas on penology that the primary role of incarceration should be rehabilitation. We say that these two men were rehabilitated and thus deserved to be spared, however, the Indonesian Courts deal with punishment first.

Too often we hear that someone convicted and sentenced to a term of imprisonment will be free in less than half that time. Perhaps 'truth in sentencing' should be enforced, if you get 5 years, you do five years and if you behave you get to go home after that five years. If you don't behave you get a little more time there to think about it.

I arrested a person a long time ago in Canberra, his motive was to get a short prison term over winter as the Canberra winter was too cold to be out.

Going back to the original post on this thread, yes there was a waste of life and potential, but I think it occurred before these people left Australia. Sukumaran for instance dropped out of university, into a mail room job then joined a gang as he realised he could never afford fast cars, girls and nightclubs on his mailroom salary.

I do feel very sad for the families if they were the innocent ones in this matter and were unaware of the criminal activities of these 9 young people. From experience that is not always the case and many families happily share in the proceeds of crimes such as these.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Matt

the death penalty is carried out in Japan more often than Indonesia,

Just for info, i wikied the Japan vs Indonesia numbers and i reckon Indonesia will catch up pretty quick.
That said, the Japanese only appear to execute murderers and in many cases it has to be multiple murder.
Looking at the Indonesion site, i see they also execute a lot of their own for murder, but when i looked at the drugs related deaths executions since 2000, it is listed as 18 foreigners and 2 locals.
Considering the country is stated to be awash in drugs, i would have suspected a lot higher ratio of locals, unless they somehow know how to evade the system???

Ron

This might sound callous, but if you give them life or long sentences they have to be clothed and fed and looked after for anything upto say 50 years, that is a hell of a lot of money.

Maybe here, but not there. Unless you have outside friends sending in food and clothes, you starve in the cold.
I reckon the show of military force and the administrative dog and pony show put on for the execution could have clothed and fed all of the victims for more than 50 years.
All really irrelevant now.

Andrew

[Eratosthenes (Peter)]

Originally Posted by LewisM

1 million Iraqis... please elucidate where you contrived this figure. Most reports put it closer to 500,000, to as "few" as 121,000.




We do? Well, maybe the Politicians.

I personally find US foreign policy and actions abhorrent, despicable, and rife with double standard.

Actually the estimate of 1 million dead Iraqis since 2003 has strong support even though the USA doesn't like it when it's crimes are aired in public. And most the deaths were civilians of which about 2/3 were women, children and the elderly.

How was this figure arrived at? Well that is very interesting indeed because the 2 analysts used to conduct the study were the same people who carried out an identical study in the Serbian conflict. The international criminal court accepted the results of these two expert analysts, and found Milosovic guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The USA and all nations involved in the Milosovic prosecution had no problem accepting the death toll count. The USA did however reject the figures of the same analysts who used the same statistical techniques in Iraq.

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Moral relativism and the rejection of the basic principle of universality seems to be a convenient tool used by the underbelly of the West. An underbelly steeped in corporate fascism and imperial based racism.