Aboriginal and Maori starlore & observations

[N1 (Mirko)]

I'm interested in indigenous astronomy & would like to do a bit of reading (only when it's cloudy of course ) on the Emu in the Sky, Rehua the Chief of Stars, early observations & representations/ records of celestial phenomena.

Any suggestions on what books might be worth looking into?

Thanks

[BlackWidow (Mardy)]

I would contact the Aboriginal Cultural Society in your state. They will be able to guide you as the where you can find that information

[GOTO (Geoff)]

he and Prof Ray Norris are the main movers on this subject. Here is a good link that may help:
http://emudreaming.com
Cheers
Geoff

[pixelsaurus (Mike)]

"The Astronomical Knowledge of the Maori, Genuine and Empirical" by Elsdon Best could be a start. It is a fairly old book and may only be available on interloan. It has been some 45 years since I last held a copy of this book.

[Eden (Brett)]

Wikipedia is a surprisingly good source for this information. Many entries pertaining to specific stars and constellations contain relevant lore which is culturally and/or historically significant to Australian indigenous peoples.

Here's one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcturus

[N1 (Mirko)]

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I agree, Wikipedia is pretty good. I do like the feel of a book though. Will check out the suggested publications/ avenues.

[pluto (Hugh)]

If you're on Facebook there's a page called "Aboriginal Skies", they post interesting tid-bits regarding the way different cultures, including Australian Aboriginals, view the night sky.
It may not be a source of in depth knowledge about the subject you're interested in but it might be somewhere to ask about books etc.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Abori...56305897720881

[Zaps]

This is a topic rife with revisionist history, so beware.

[acropolite (Phil)]

I have a book on this subject, unfortunately I'm away from home ATM, when I get back (early July) I'll look up the title.

[allan gould]

Originally Posted by Zaps

This is a topic rife with revisionist history, so beware.

Totally agree with you there, some really loose science there.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Thanks. Re science or non-science, that doesn't really worry me. I am looking for interpretations of reality long before science even existed & draw my own conclusions.

Cheers

[Zaps]

Originally Posted by N1

I am looking for interpretations of reality long before science even existed & draw my own conclusions.

But what you'll almost certainly get is a contemporary fantasy reinterpretation of rose-tinted half-memories based upon nothing but the author's cultural, ethnic and political ideologies.

Welcome to the social sciences of today.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

But what you'll almost certainly get is a contemporary fantasy reinterpretation of rose-tinted half-memories based upon nothing but the author's cultural, ethnic and political ideologies.

Welcome to the social sciences of today.

I'm not interested in politicising early observations of natural phenomena. Nor am I interested in a strict scientific approach, because that is something very few people actually achieve. Early Australian/Polynesian stories about constellations and their "origins" & legends I consider no less valid than those relating to the 88 modern constellations. Their scientific foundation, too, is essentially nil. And yet they are an intregral part of today's astronomy.

[Suzy]

Originally Posted by pluto

If you're on Facebook there's a page called "Aboriginal Skies", they post interesting tid-bits regarding the way different cultures, including Australian Aboriginals, view the night sky.
It may not be a source of in depth knowledge about the subject you're interested in but it might be somewhere to ask about books etc.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Abori...56305897720881

Hi Mirko, +1 for Hugh's suggestion .
It really is a great site and I regularly share their stuff on our own IIS fb page. Paul Starman Curnow runs it and he knows his stuff. He is a professional astronomer & university teacher in South Australia & does tons of lectures on Aboriginal Astronomy & works at the Adelaide Planetarium. Along with a bit of Greek mythology, I enjoy this also. I'm sure you'd love the page. Meanwhile, Paul is a good buddy of mine so I will message him and ask him for his book recommendations for you.

Here is a couple of examples of what Paul posts on the Aboriginal Skies facebook page (there are pictures attached to the posts but I've not included them here):

ABORIGINAL SKIES – VOLCANO & EARTHQUAKE WEEK:

The Boandik People come from the region around Mount Gambier and Mount Shank in South Australia. Much of what we know today about the Dreaming of the Boandik People comes from the recordings of Christina Smith, who was a teacher and missionary that moved with her family to the region of Mt Gambier in 1854.

The Boandik Dreaming tells of the giant Craitbul and his family who roamed about the area looking for a place to live. Craitbul and his family camped and made ovens at Mount Muirhead near Millicent in South Australia, and also at Mount Schank near Mt Gambier. However, Craitbul and his family were eventually frightened away from both places by the moaning voice of a bird spirit. They decided to escape from the bird spirit by moving closer to Mount Gambier where they resided at for some time. Again Craitbul and his family made an oven; however, one day water came up from beneath them and extinguished their fire. They attempted to make other ovens but all were extinguished due to the water rising beneath them. They made four ovens like this which are now the four main craters which can be found in Mount Gambier. Moreover, Mount Schank and this region is part of the Newer Volcanics Province, which represents the youngest volcanic field on the Australian mainland. (Pictured: Top - Mt Shank and The Blue Lake Caldera in Mt Gambier (bottom). Image source: Kanawinka)

n The Dreaming of the Adnyamathanha People from the Flinders Ranges region of South Australia, the stars Alpha & Beta Centauri (The Pointers) represent two hunters known as the Muda Awi. The hunters had created a fire which had spread accidentally to surrounding scrub. As a result the hunters had to flee up the side of a steep cliff. Eventually, they ended up on the peak of an isolated cliff with the fire all around, and to save themselves the hunters fled into the sky where they are now seen as 'The Pointers'. In 1969 the renowned Australian artist Ainslie Roberts depicted the hunters in this stunning painting titled 'The Hunters of Morowie'.

[GrahamL]

http://www.booktopia.com.au/search.e...nifer%20Isaacs

australian dreaming does have a chapter (10 pages ) devoted to stories relating to the stars and planets , its a great read though as is the whole book.

[Suzy]

Hi again Mirko,
Paul Curnow just got back to me. I also sent him the link to this thread so that's what he's referring to at the beginning of this reply. This is what he said:

I was surprised to see a few of the somewhat unqualified and negative comments on there about Aboriginal Astronomy. I find most astronomers that make these comments have rarely spent a lot of time studying the topic. I can understand why many don't consider it 'science' in the modern sense, but it does represent some of the earliest ponderings about the cosmos and was an effort to explain natural phenomena. Accepted that many stories about the night sky were a reflection of religious and spiritual significance, but there is also evidence of practical science. The stars were used for navigation, education, to reinforce cultural identity and a seasonal guide to the availability of foods. Additionally, because of the research of people like Ray Norris & John Morieson we now know of locations where they were also monitoring the rising and setting positions of the Sun. Conversely, most astronomers still use the classical constellations founded in Sumerian mythology to navigate their way around the sky, but sometimes shy away from other interpretations. As far as more reading goes they might like to start by visiting: http://sa.apana.org.au/~paulc/loreaussie.html - you already mentioned: Aboriginal Skies, a lecture I gave on Maori Astronomy can be found at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kZcA...&feature=email - and a book my colleague Ray Norris wrote: http://www.emudreaming.com/book.htm - this is s start

[Zaps]

I was surprised to see a few of the somewhat unqualified and negative comments on there about Aboriginal Astronomy. I find most astronomers that make these comments have rarely spent a lot of time studying the topic. I can understand why many don't consider it 'science' in the modern sense, but it does represent some of the earliest ponderings about the cosmos and was an effort to explain natural phenomena.

The problem I and many others have with these topics isn't related so much to the science, or lack of it. It's a result of the "miraculous" sudden appearance of, for instance, a native astronomy that often didn't previously exist, in literature or spoken language, and only appears to have very conveniently sprung into being simply to fulfill the requirements and demands of some contemporary revisionist cultural, ethnic or political agenda.

For the record, I'm not only referring to Aboriginal or New Zealand Maori history; it's become a common trend worldwide.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Hi Suzy,

Some great resources there, thanks for those It makes for interesting reading, and I'm not worried whether it's called science or whatever. Some interesting background is to be gained, and that's what matters. The mere thought that people were looking at these same stars thousands of years ago and put them to practical use as well as the passing on of knowledge, I find fascinating.

Cheers

[ZeroID (Brent)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

The problem I and many others have with these topics isn't related so much to the science, or lack of it. It's a result of the "miraculous" sudden appearance of, for instance, a native astronomy that often didn't previously exist, in literature or spoken language, and only appears to have very conveniently sprung into being simply to fulfill the requirements and demands of some contemporary revisionist cultural, ethnic or political agenda.

For the record, I'm not only referring to Aboriginal or New Zealand Maori history; it's become a common trend worldwide.

The Maori have had a strong astronomical culture for many yeaqrs. Matariki, the Maori New Year has just started here. Signified by the first appearance of the Sthn Plieades in the predawn sky. It marked the middle of winter and the preparation for next years plantings and plans. They navigated from their island homes 800 years ago by sun and star guidance.
Almost all cultures on the past took notice of the passing of the seasons by astronomical means even if they would not be considered as 'science' by your definition. Stonehenge, the Sumerian observatories of rocks and slopes, alignments of the pyramids etc etc etc.
I find it interesting to discover how our ancient forebears used the limited resources they had ( by todays standards) to make some amazing deductions about the world and the sciences we now know.

[Zaps]

Originally Posted by ZeroID

Almost all cultures on the past took notice of the passing of the seasons by astronomical means even if they would not be considered as 'science' by your definition.

As I said, the question is not "Is it science?" The question is "Why in most cases was there essentially zero awareness of all this alleged 'Ancient astronomical knowledge and starlore' before only very recent times?"