#21  
Old 26-05-2019, 04:49 PM
croweater (Richard)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post


So - how did Mike manage to get such a good telescope? -
is he using the same model corrector?
What has changed?


cheers
Allan
They were afraid he would go over there and rip their arms off
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  #22  
Old 29-05-2019, 07:48 AM
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Paul Haese
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Originally Posted by alpal View Post
Hi Paul,
there seems to be some bad press about Orion Optics UK.
https://myastroshop.com.au/ssmassey/...-10-review.htm
..........

So - how did Mike manage to get such a good telescope? -
is he using the same model corrector?
What has changed?


cheers
Allan
Mike bought his scope some years ago and this probably when they had better QA going on. His corrector is similar but slightly different. It is not as wide in diameter and has a different connection system to the camera. I believe there are no threads on the corrector, you bolt it onto the adapter.

That review will not be the only one that is bad. There are many complaints on Cloudy Nights Forum about OOUK. Mine is about to be published too.
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  #23  
Old 29-05-2019, 08:02 AM
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strongmanmike (Michael)
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A disappointing road... but good to see you have discovered what your issue is Paul.

My Wynn corrector is the earlier (C. 2011) model, it is actually several mm wider (larger elements) than the current model and has no threads, instead it is held inside the Atlas focuser adapter with 2 X 3 nylon grub screws and the adjustable length camera adapter bolts to it.

Mike
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  #24  
Old 30-05-2019, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Haese View Post
Mike bought his scope some years ago and this probably when they had better QA going on. His corrector is similar but slightly different. It is not as wide in diameter and has a different connection system to the camera. I believe there are no threads on the corrector, you bolt it onto the adapter.

That review will not be the only one that is bad. There are many complaints on Cloudy Nights Forum about OOUK. Mine is about to be published too.



Hi Paul,
the problem with writing a review is that there is always 2 sides to every story
and inevitably the suppliers side may not be represented fully.
In normal business practice warranty doesn't cover customers who have tampered or modified something.
Therefore how can a review be fair and impartial?


cheers
Allan


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  #25  
Old 30-05-2019, 08:43 AM
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OICURMT
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I LOL'd when I went to their website and clicked on "CUSTOMER TESTIMONIALS"... blank page

https://www.orionoptics.co.uk/testimonials.html
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  #26  
Old 30-05-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongmanmike View Post
A disappointing road... but good to see you have discovered what your issue is Paul.

My Wynn corrector is the earlier (C. 2011) model, it is actually several mm wider (larger elements) than the current model and has no threads, instead it is held inside the Atlas focuser adapter with 2 X 3 nylon grub screws and the adjustable length camera adapter bolts to it.

Mike
Thanks Mike for clearing that up. I had thought your corrector was smaller. I was wrong. I also have the same 2 x3 nyln grub screws too and adjustable length camera adapter but the corrector itself has two threads at the camera end of the corrector. You have to screw an adapter onto camera end to attach a camera. The bolted idea was probably better to prevent tilt or at least be able to adjust it easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post
Hi Paul,
the problem with writing a review is that there is always 2 sides to every story
and inevitably the suppliers side may not be represented fully.
In normal business practice warranty doesn't cover customers who have tampered or modified something.
Therefore how can a review be fair and impartial?


cheers
Allan


Allan, of course a review can be fair and impartial even when I have had to do repairs to get the telescope to work. Reviews are always what the consumers opinions are of a particular product. If I "tampered" with it to get it to work, then I am entitled to tell people what I think of delivered product. The review will be fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OICURMT View Post
I LOL'd when I went to their website and clicked on "CUSTOMER TESTIMONIALS"... blank page

https://www.orionoptics.co.uk/testimonials.html
Now it says Our customer's value on what we brought them .. Self praise is no recommendation.
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  #27  
Old 01-06-2019, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Haese View Post

Allan, of course a review can be fair and impartial even when I have had to do repairs to get the telescope to work. Reviews are always what the consumers opinions are of a particular product. If I "tampered" with it to get it to work, then I am entitled to tell people what I think of delivered product. The review will be fair.

Hi Paul,
looking at the previous review
https://myastroshop.com.au/ssmassey/...-10-review.htm



The review didn't take in the perspective of the the supplier
or the amateur market price point.


I can speak for what I know about as I'm involved with
electronics every day.
There was a problem with the connector.
http://myastroshop.com.au/ssmassey/r...-10-wiring.jpg


That is a terrible solder joint & could never have worked properly.
I'm sure that Orion Optics must have been furious with whoever soldered it.
Orion paid for & trusted someone to solder that.
Imagine how Orion must have felt?

For a start such cheap connectors are not suitable for
a system requiring high reliability.
The RCA connector that the customer added was also not suitable.
You really need to have a MIL spec connector and cable e.g.
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j0...-Connector.jpg
Such a MIL spec connector with proper solder joints &
suitably flexible strong cable would be far more reliable.
Notice it has a proper rubber cable sleeve protector used with a
2 screw cable clamp?
However - such connectors cost a lot of money -
they are difficult to find - and there is usually a MOQ on ones
like that out of China.

There is a nice used mating pair on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USED-Cann...r/123720336206

here was the closest on Element14.
https://au.element14.com/amphenol-in...MS3102E10SL-4P

A plug is on Mouser:
https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...yCCjSdTg%3D%3D

I am having difficulty finding a matching pair on one website.
The date book has 73 pages to wade through.

Then you need the right cable.
OK - so for Orion to use such parts they
would need someone to find the right parts that will match.
They need a person they can trust to solder them up
& put heat shrink over the solder joints -
then test the cable.
They need to set up a new supplier or suppliers in their system,
change their engineering drawings.
It all costs a lot more money.
So something that we might see is as simple as a connector is not so simple.
I have seen quite simple MIL spec cables like the one needed costing over $400
& complicated ones costing over $5,000.


Orion is appealing to the amateur market where not many people would
pay that sort of money.
If every connector and cable in a whole system was MIL spec
it would possibly double or triple the price of their product.
That doesn't excuse their bad soldering but I think I've made a good point.
Bad soldering happens and is something that is hard to stop
from ever happening again.
I've seen companies that can never get their soldering right
no matter how many pictures & emails I send them.
I don't think Orion is like that.


Amateurs could save a lot of money by buying a product
and later modifying it themselves with quality Mil Spec connectors -
as long as they are prepared to put a lot of time in and
have proper soldering equipment & experience.


cheers
Allan
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2019, 07:50 AM
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Slawomir (Suavi)
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I believe there were more issues with the scope in that review than just bad soldering? I have over 20 non-industrial cables (40+ plugs) in my setup that I set up/down for each session, and so far only 1 USB cord needed replacement after a few years of plugging and unplugging
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  #29  
Old 01-06-2019, 08:05 AM
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Allan, whilst I did not have any issues with the fan wiring, I have had many issues with many components of the scope. Basics that OOUK should have known was present if they had decent QA systems in place. Just two examples were: The secondary offset was set at 14mm. The correct offset for a 110mm secondary and f4 focal ratio is 6.8mm This is based on the primary f ratio not the final ratio of the system with the corrector in place). The second example was that the all the tube rings had one bevel cleanly finished and the other looked like it had been taken to with a grinder (see image). How the hell does one miss that? Should I just simply put up with that crap? They are not angry or embarrassed. They just don't care about what their customers get. I have never once received an apology for any thing missing from the order or substandard parts.

Steve's review is fair in my opinion. He was the dealer for OOUK for quite some time but found that he was paying out constantly to meet warranty requirements of customers that had bought OOUK telescopes. I have spoken with him several times and everything that he experienced I have now experienced in terms of how OOUK address issues. Don't make excuses for these guys if you have not dealt with them. It's time they were brought to task over their BS.
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  #30  
Old 01-06-2019, 01:15 PM
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alpal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Haese View Post
Allan, whilst I did not have any issues with the fan wiring, I have had many issues with many components of the scope. Basics that OOUK should have known was present if they had decent QA systems in place. Just two examples were: The secondary offset was set at 14mm. The correct offset for a 110mm secondary and f4 focal ratio is 6.8mm This is based on the primary f ratio not the final ratio of the system with the corrector in place). The second example was that the all the tube rings had one bevel cleanly finished and the other looked like it had been taken to with a grinder (see image). How the hell does one miss that? Should I just simply put up with that crap? They are not angry or embarrassed. They just don't care about what their customers get. I have never once received an apology for any thing missing from the order or substandard parts.

Steve's review is fair in my opinion. He was the dealer for OOUK for quite some time but found that he was paying out constantly to meet warranty requirements of customers that had bought OOUK telescopes. I have spoken with him several times and everything that he experienced I have now experienced in terms of how OOUK address issues. Don't make excuses for these guys if you have not dealt with them. It's time they were brought to task over their BS.

Hi Paul,
I might have more to say later but I see a great irony in all this in that after
you've solved all your problems with this AG12 you might take some
of the best pictures you've ever taken.
If your AG12 primary & secondary is as good as Mike's then
it will be a beast taking on the world.


cheers
Allan

Last edited by alpal; 02-06-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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  #31  
Old 01-06-2019, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post
Hi Paul,
I might have more to say later but he see a great irony in all this in that after
you've solved all your problems with this AG12 you might take some
of the best pictures you've ever taken.
If your AG12 primary & secondary is as good as Mike's then
it will be a beast taking on the world.


cheers
Allan
The fundamentals are there fortunately. I hope I can get the corrector fixed and then have it working as it should. Time will tell. For now I have a working solution.
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  #32  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Haese View Post
The fundamentals are there fortunately. I hope I can get the corrector fixed and then have it working as it should. Time will tell. For now I have a working solution.



Hi Paul,

That's the thing -
if the mirrors are good then the rest can be ironed out.
If the carbon fiber tube is the same as Mike's then it
will hold focus & collimation, -
& the heavy focuser, camera & CC
will not tilt and cause errors.
If the primary mirror holder is the same then the mirror
will hold its optical figure at all angles and be stable.
I expect to see some top images from you soon.


cheers
Allan
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  #33  
Old 02-06-2019, 02:00 PM
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I agree with Paul.

These days we all rely on accurate reviews to make informed decisions to get past false marketing claims. What is the actual quality of the product? That's what we want to know before buying not afterwards.

So a good review that is accurate is very valuable and will save others some grief - that's a good thing.

It will also help sort the market out so good producers get validated and shoddy ones go away.

Greg.
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  #34  
Old 11-06-2019, 11:13 AM
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alocky (Andrew lockwood)
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I think the really disappointing aspect is the complete lack of response from Orion to Paul. Its not a bargain basement telescope, and I would consider it to be in a similar price band to the ASA telescopes, in fact, the two companies used some of the same components. I had some issues with my ASA 16, for example, the coating on the secondary failed prematurely (and I suspect this was in fact from Orion optics). The difference is ASA were extremely apologetic and paid for me to get it recoated by Wayne Sainty without hesitation. Likewise, some of the more serious issues I had with the mount that were actually inherited from the previous owner they rectified at cost. This level of service should be normal from any manufacturer, not just a premium one. Our pursuit of a bargain has normalised some poor behaviour from the supplier!
Regards
Andrew.
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