The mind boggles

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by OICURMT

The US is currently 10th to 13th (source dependent) for deathrate by guns (3.85/100k) and tops the list of developed countries. The next developed country is Finland at 3.25/100k. FYI, Australia sits around 1/100k.

I'm not sure where you're getting your statistics from, but this is what came up when I did a quick search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year / Guns per 100 Inhabitants
USA: 11.96 / 101.05
Finland: 3.25 / 27.5
Canada: 2.05 / 25.33
New Zealand: 1.07 / 30
Australia: 1.04 / 13.70
United Kingdom: 0.23 / 2.80
Japan: 0.06 / 0.6

If only we could see some sort of correlation in the statistics between gun ownership and gun-related deaths?
/sarcasm

[PCH (Paul)]

Wow, - there's a surprise - NZ and Aussie ahead of the UK in the gun death game! Who'd of thought?

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by PCH

Wow, - there's a surprise - NZ and Aussie ahead of the UK in the gun death game! Who'd of thought?

Not really suprising to me. Alot of rural people in Australia still have guns, and alot of people still get sad and put guns to their heads when they own them.

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by julianh72

I'm not sure where you're getting your statistics from, but this is what came up when I did a quick search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Hmm... guess I'll have to check the vailidty of my source...


https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...ther-countries


NPR is usually pretty good.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Kal

Not really suprising to me. Alot of rural people in Australia still have guns, and alot of people still get sad and put guns to their heads when they own them.

Up here (I am now at Tabulam having driven up uesterday) I know of probably eight guys who took their own life over 20 years. Mostly by a 22 but one used a shot gun. I can only recall one gassing himself.
Alex

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by OICURMT

Hmm... guess I'll have to check the vailidty of my source...


https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...ther-countries


NPR is usually pretty good.

The NPR figures for the USA in particular are for homicides only. There's a note on the NPR chart for "How The U.S. Compares With The Lowest Rates Of Violent Gun Deaths Worldwide":
"All charts exclude deaths in armed conflict and from accidents or self-harm."

The Wikipedia data comes from a variety of sources, and the "Total" column includes justifiable homicides, suicides, and accidental fatalities. In particular, note that the number of suicides is typically several times higher than the homicides, and then there's also the "unintentional" and "undetermined" deaths, which are also (unsurprisingly) significantly higher in countries with high levels of gun ownership.

However, I think the NPR might have made a mistake on some of their graphs - I think they have plotted the USA figure of homicides only, but some of the others are apparently the total gun-related death figures. Comparing statistics across countries can be difficult, because not all countries will keep accurate statistics for all classifications.

The take-away message in the NPR report is in the last paragraph:

"One more way to consider this data: The IHME also estimates what it would expect a country's rate of gun violence deaths to be based solely on its socioeconomic status. By that measure, the U.S. should only be seeing .79 deaths per 100,000 people — almost five times less than its actual rate of 3.85 deaths per 100,000."

[PCH (Paul)]

Originally Posted by Kal

Not really suprising to me. Alot of rural people in Australia still have guns, and alot of people still get sad and put guns to their heads when they own them.

Pretty sure they have farms and fields in pommieland too Kal. Just saying. So why would it not surprise you that we're sadder here than there?

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by PCH

Pretty sure they have farms and fields in pommieland too Kal. Just saying. So why would it not surprise you that we're sadder here than there?

Got nothing to do with one country being sadder than the other, the only relevant statistic is posted 2 posts above my original comment. Australia still has 5x more guns per population than the UK. Most of those guns would be rural, and theres proven statistics out there that show that the suicide rate is higher in rural Australia because of the access to guns.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Come generalising is not helpful.

The little girl thing points to a problem of how parents start training kids at an early age to do this or that and that approach is not limited to the USA.

At least she is being trained , hopefully in responsible gun (rifle) management.

I was watching Pawn Stars and a lady presented a hand gun that she purchased at a garage sale which is alarming and points to the real issue that controls are really needed.

There are many folk over there who would like to see gun laws reviewed and they are not stupid.

Anyways just because a large number of folk voted for Trump there are many not so stupid who see thru him.

Alex

Wholly agreed, best to avoid the generalisations. I have US friends who want guns banned (and for good reason). Not everyone supports the ideals of NRA etc.

A friend voted for Trump, and now regrets doing so. He was also very surprised that I knew so much about American politics etc.

As far as I understand, getting rid of guns is almost impossible - each state has co-signed the US constitution and EACH state must approve any amendments to constitution. I cannot see states like Texas etc doing so. Like, ever.

There is a direct correlation between gun ownership and death by guns in wealthy modern countries - with the US topping any developed nation for death by gun by a considerable margin on a per capita basis. Sadly, a large number of Americans refuse to acknowledge this, and, I suspect, will never give up their guns, even if it was legislated. The right to bear arms is the only slight on the US constitution imho - it is otherwise an exceptionally well written legal document, with a great deal of foresight. It makes the Australian constitution look rubbish imho.

[AndyG (Andy)]

So much anti-gun angst here.

Only a few months back I took custody of a rather nice Lithgow .303, complete with bayonet, and 5 other POS fudd shotties from a friend's deceased father. Total outlay, $36 each (for PTA papers). It would have been a crying shame to see them crushed/melted down. My friend was happy to see them survive the furnace, as he'd been using them on the family cane farm since he was a boy.

I wonder what proportion of IIS enjoy shooting, own gun(s), worked primary industry, or have served in some capacity? Even ADF tradies would have needed to qualify on a .303, SLR, or F88 depending on their era.
It's just another hobby to most, a tool of the trade for some, and a vector for antisocial behaviour for very, very, very few. Sadly, bad news travels fastest/widest, and nobody cares for the peaceful or the harmless.


Having spent some time on gun forums and clubs, I'll list the differences in the backgrounds between them, and IIS inhabitants:
...
(None).


They are people just like you, with the same humour, encouragement of the newcomers, and love of their chosen thing. They argue over which method/tool is best, and lament the actions of outsiders' activities which encroach on their ability to partake. Consider "light polluters" - they are remorseless, as they feel they've done no harm.

I'd encourage anyone uncomfortable to find a local range and say hello. You could have fun. The biggest downside, as with any hobby, is that you may get poor That's the only warning I need offer

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Andy, with all due respect, there just is no need for the 99.99999999% of the population to either own a gun, or have access to a gun.

Yes, I can understand those who want to pursue gun shooting as a sport. I'm cool with that as long as they pass a medical psychological test every 2 years.

Yes, I'm cool with rural primary employees owning/having access to a gun. Same thing - as long as they are tested for mental illness issues every 2 years.

I'm sure those poor children, mother and grandmother that were murdered very recently in WA would agree with me if they were able to.

I'm not surprised that Australia and NZ having a higher death rate per 100k than the UK - the UK has been stricter on gun control since the early 20th century, with many changes to firearms over the course of the rest of the 20th century. Australia and NZ have been much more lax - crikey, up until the Port Arthur massacre, you could walk into kmart and buy bullets (I know, i used to watch my dad go in and buy bullets from time to time for hunting out the back of Bourke).

We actually got a very nasty surprise in November last year - my mum passed away in June, and in November, myself, sister and brother-in-law were cleaning out the garage and found dad's old semi-automatic rifle. There's no way we wanted that in the house, we thought dad had handed it into the police when the armistice was on. I called the cops and it took them near 2 days to get off their rear ends and come on out and pick it up. I wanted nothing to do with the damn horrid thing. 2 months later we found a bunch of boxes of bullets and I went and handed them into the local police station. Couldn't wait to get rid of the silly things. I'm pretty damn sure there's prolly a bunch of guns around the country that are hidden in similar circumstances - because prior to the armistice, there was ZERO tracking of who owned a gun, what type of gun they owned, or mental health assessment etc.

edit: my dad passed in 2012. I have zero idea if mum know that the gun was still in the house, or even where it was. I'd lived here for 10 years and had no idea and was very shocked when my sister came upon it during the mass clean out (mum & dad were MAJOR bloody hoarders).

[LewisM]

Originally Posted by AndyG

So much anti-gun angst here.

Only a few months back I took custody of a rather nice Lithgow .303, complete with bayonet, and 5 other POS fudd shotties from a friend's deceased father. Total outlay, $36 each (for PTA papers). It would have been a crying shame to see them crushed/melted down. My friend was happy to see them survive the furnace, as he'd been using them on the family cane farm since he was a boy.

I wonder what proportion of IIS enjoy shooting, own gun(s), worked primary industry, or have served in some capacity? Even ADF tradies would have needed to qualify on a .303, SLR, or F88 depending on their era.
It's just another hobby to most, a tool of the trade for some, and a vector for antisocial behaviour for very, very, very few. Sadly, bad news travels fastest/widest, and nobody cares for the peaceful or the harmless.


Having spent some time on gun forums and clubs, I'll list the differences in the backgrounds between them, and IIS inhabitants:
...
(None).


They are people just like you, with the same humour, encouragement of the newcomers, and love of their chosen thing. They argue over which method/tool is best, and lament the actions of outsiders' activities which encroach on their ability to partake. Consider "light polluters" - they are remorseless, as they feel they've done no harm.

I'd encourage anyone uncomfortable to find a local range and say hello. You could have fun. The biggest downside, as with any hobby, is that you may get poor That's the only warning I need offer

Count me in. I am a military firearms collector, and shoot regularly (range). I have NEVER killed an animal in my life with any firearm or weapon (unless we classify cars as weapons now ) and nor do I ever intend to. I have no need to kill anything, and nor do I ever perceive to.

I used to have 127 firearms at one point of bachelorhood (and this was WELL AND TRULY after Port Arthur) - a Collector with the Disease - but my wife cured me of this ailment early on...we lived off the sales proceeds for nigh on 5 years (some of the Experimental Lithgow SMLE's I had alone fetched $6000 each...). These days, not so many, but enjoy it thoroughly.

[Exfso (Peter)]

and now to cap it off, they are getting kids in kindergarten singing nursery rhymes about how to stay safe when there is a school shooting. What a seriously sad state of affairs having to resort to this.


https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/worl...ool-shootings/

[LewisM]

Yup, the United Stupid Americans.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by Kal

theres proven statistics out there that show that the suicide rate is higher in rural Australia because of the access to guns.

Suicide rate is proportional to firearm access only if you cherry pick the data points.

Here's a couple that disprove that there is a causative link.

Japan gun ownership 0.6 per 100 people.
Japan suicide rate: 19.7 per 100,000 people.

USA gun ownership: 101 per 100 people.
USA suicide rate: 14.3 per 100,000 people.

Ergo... Japan with 160x less guns per capita, has almost 150% higher suicide rate. (compared to the US)

Source:
Here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by dpastern

There is a direct correlation between gun ownership and death by guns in wealthy modern countries - .

Only when you cherry pick the data points...

Here's two that disprove the assertion that there is a causative link:

Switzerland has a gun ownership rate of 24.5%... but that doesn't tell the whole story. That figure fails to acknowledge the 'government owned' assault rifle to be found in pretty much every home in the country. Ergo: anyone who wants access to a high powered automatic(?) weapon, has access to one.
Homicide rate in Switzerland: 0.21 per 100,000 people.

USA... effectively the same access to firearms (as Switzerland)
Homicide rate in USA: 4.62 per 100,000 people.

So we have a 2300% higher homicide rate in the US with effectively the same access to firearms. (as Switzerland).

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Judging by the long list of blithering idiots and white collar criminals that we routinely elect to public office, I wouldn't be so quick to call pot, kettle black.

2c

This.

The US has states larger than Australia. Limit the stories just to what comes out of Florida or California etc., and you're on a similar level.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Only when you cherry pick the data points...

Well put.
Gun ownership is higher now than it was in 1990, yet the gun crime rate is far lower, and almost exclusively with firearms that have never been legal.

The overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the US are from gang crime, not from some 15yr old shooting up their school. They definitely need some form of gun law reform, but the media seems absolutely focussed on what is a small part of the problem.

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

This.

"The US has states larger than Australia". Limit the stories just to what comes out of Florida or California etc., and you're on a similar level.

Obviously you were very poor at geography at school ,and it seems it has not improve since you left school

Alaska
The Largest States in the U.S. by Area
Rank State Area (in square miles)
1 Alaska 663,267.26
2 Texas 268,580.82
3 California 163,695.57
4 Montana 147,042.40

7.692 million km²
If you meant in population,then say so.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Andy, with all due respect, there just is no need for the 99.99999999% of the population to either own a gun, or have access to a gun.

Classic matra of the "grabbers". Not original, please try harder.

Originally Posted by dpastern

I'm sure those poor children, mother and grandmother that were murdered very recently in WA would agree with me if they were able to.

"Think of the chillunz" - Matra #2. I almost didn't notice it. Like all parents, I do think of people. Please, read on.

Originally Posted by dpastern

I'm not surprised that Australia and NZ having a higher death rate per 100k than the UK

Higher death rate for guns only you mean? Their murder rate is much higher... Hell, London recently celebrated taking that accolade from New York. Except scumbags switched to knives to achieve it. Trouble is, knives can be hidden in plain sight. What now?

Originally Posted by dpastern

Yes, I can understand those who want to pursue gun shooting as a sport. I'm cool with that as long as they pass a medical psychological test every 2 years.

Good, now we're getting somewhere. Anything can be a murder weapon. You could kill me with a 30mm ABC skygazing record refractor, - if you shove it far enough up my nose... So what we are seeing here is the difference between the tool, and the intention. The intention comes from the user (not the tool). Hence, your attention to mental health is welcomed by all (not just the gun community and their opponents). In fact, that's the key to peace in civilised society, which is often considered all too hard to achieve. So, they just ban stuff, because, you know, we can't be trusted.

Originally Posted by dpastern

We actually got a very nasty surprise in November last year - my mum passed away in June, and in November, myself, sister and brother-in-law were cleaning out the garage and found dad's old semi-automatic rifle.

Sounds scary. You wore a hazmat suit before picking it up? Nah seriously, when my old man goes, I'll be wading through 11 tonnes of train parts, wrought iron, and 5% of a P-38 Lightning. All up, I reckon you've done better than I