Eq6r pro hypertune

[Dilsh]

Hey guys,

Was interested in hypertuning my mount. If not for the fact that my third child is imminently due I would do it myself but the boss might kill me.

Was interested in changing the ball bearing and tightening things up.

Does anyone do this is Melbourne?

Cheers,

Dilshan

[Startrek (Martin)]

Are you having problems with Dec backlash or guiding in general ?
What’s the reasoning behind a “Hypertune” ?
I have 2 of these EQ6-R mounts and although they performed well for the first 12 months I had some Dec backlash issues on one of them
I decided to adjusted the worm gears and motor drive belts in both Dec and Ra and reduced the Dec backlash from 3000ms down to 900ms on average
Took about an hour or so on each mount
Now they guide as best as you can get with minimal backlash under my sky conditions
I use the PPEC algorithm in PHD2 ( the mounts are not PEC trained either )
Guiding numbers
Average seeing 0.60 to 0.70 total rms
Good seeing 0.45 to 0.60 total rms
Payload 9kg and 14kg respectively

Sometimes it’s best not to touch things if your mount is performing ok and your images reflect that !!

There was a company in Perth that hyper tuned Skywatcher mounts but I think they no longer perform that work anymore. I sent a general enquiry back in late 2021 and never got a reply.

Cheers
Martin

[alpal]

Hi Dilshan ,
about 14 years ago Roger from Bintel in Melbourne helped me with
a Dec problem on my NEQ6 mount - not belt drive like yours.
I would phone Bintel in Sydney and ask about him or maybe
they could recommend someone else?
He adjusted the Dec backlash for me and my mount worked well after that.
On nights of good seeing I was getting only 0.25 RMS per pixel error on PHD2 guiding.
It looks like the factory are still not setting up the backlash correctly now.


cheers
Allan

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Roger has retired from doing these kinds of jobs a few years ago, I'd be interested to know if anyone else does some hypertuning, although admittedly my mount always guides regularly at 0.6 rms and below most times. This is an NEQ6 pro that has had the rowan belt upgrade

[alpal]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Roger has retired from doing these kinds of jobs a few years ago, I'd be interested to know if anyone else does some hypertuning, although admittedly my mount always guides regularly at 0.6 rms and below most times. This is an NEQ6 pro that has had the rowan belt upgrade

Sure - don't they still use a worm drive even when there are rubber belts?

[Startrek (Martin)]

The old EQ6 , later NEQ6 and recent EQ6-R mounts have similar worm gears and have similar adjustment screws on Dec and Ra axis
The later EQ6-R and AZEQ6 mounts have Ra and Dec drive belts not gears

If your Dec or Ra axis is stiff when rotating with the clutch released, you can adjust this ( tighten or loosen ) as well to make balancing your rig easier

See link

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0yzFTjlpZaI

Cheers
Martin

[alpal]

Originally Posted by Startrek

The old EQ6 , later NEQ6 and recent EQ6-R mounts have similar worm gears and have similar adjustment screws on Dec and Ra axis
The later EQ6-R and AZEQ6 mounts have Ra and Dec drive belts not gears

If your Dec or Ra axis is stiff when rotating with the clutch released, you can adjust this ( tighten or loosen ) as well to make balancing your rig easier

See link

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0yzFTjlpZaI

Cheers
Martin

Thanks Martin,
I didn't see Roger adjusting my NEQ6 Pro mount but he told me
that he had a special trick to do it.
He put it on a pier mount and attached a 3 meter long metal pole
to the mount top bracket.
He then checked the play by moving the pole up and down.
He used one Tally Ho cigarette paper - the thinnest they have -
to insert between the worm drive and the worm -
the idea was to adjust it till the paper just started to grab to
find the closest point where the gears wouldn't bind.
There are adjustment screws to do that.
It seems to me that it takes considerable experience to do the adjustment
since he got it right first time.


cheers
Allan

[Dilsh]

Wow. Stopped checking this thread as no one had replied.

Martin, the reason why I asked is my average RMS is around 1.0 in my bortle 7 backyard. I am now shooting with the 925 edgeHD so was hoping for better than that. You are very kind about my images but I can see on my curves that there is considerable backlash on the RA. Also during calibration, it takes alot of steps to calibrate and I am wondering if that is also a problem with the mount. I dunno, wanted to get the best out of the eq6r pro before the "new mount" itch started.

I also get the idea of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Cheers,

Dilshan

[Startrek (Martin)]

Originally Posted by Dilsh

Wow. Stopped checking this thread as no one had replied.

Martin, the reason why I asked is my average RMS is around 1.0 in my bortle 7 backyard. I am now shooting with the 925 edgeHD so was hoping for better than that. You are very kind about my images but I can see on my curves that there is considerable backlash on the RA. Also during calibration, it takes alot of steps to calibrate and I am wondering if that is also a problem with the mount. I dunno, wanted to get the best out of the eq6r pro before the "new mount" itch started.

I also get the idea of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Cheers,

Dilshan

A couple of things …

Are you using an OAG or guide scope ? Hopefully OAG for such a long focal length scope.

What guide camera ? Ideally your main scope / guide scope image scale ratio should be around 4:1 or less if possible

Are you using PHD2 to guide ?

If so , next session use the Guide Assistant to check backlash and polar alignment values

In regard to considerable Ra backlash you can check this with the rig in the home or parked position and clutches locked. Just hold the scope and try to feel any micro movement back and forward in Ra as you apply a little bit of pressure in Ra rotation back and forth.Usually you can pick it up if it’s there, I did on both my EQ6-R rigs
You can also check your motor drive belts in Dec and Ra for any excessive deflection. The small inspection plates with 3 fixing screws are visible on the mount.Check to see if drive belt deflection at a central point between pulleys is no more than say 3 to 4mm ( use a ruler or small piece of cardboard with mm markings to check )

Ra is fairly easy to fix but Dec is definitely harder

Are you balanced “East heavy” with your rig , this helps Ra as well even with belt driven mounts. All my mounts are balanced slightly east heavy

Generally an adjustment on the worms , belts and good balance on these EQ6-R mounts will get you guiding below 0.75 total rms on average to good seeing nights

Maybe check all the above

Hope this helps

Cheers
Martin

[Dilsh]

Hey Martin,

So I use a QHYOAG with a QHY5-III 290M Mono guide camera. I am using PHD2 to guide. Will try the guide assistant and those mechanical checks.

The images actually look good. It is just the RMS value that is annoying me. I know alot of it is due to seeing. I can also see the backlash in RA on the curve. I also thought I might PEC train the mount as well and see if that helps.

Cheers,

Dilshan

[Startrek (Martin)]

Originally Posted by Dilsh

Hey Martin,

So I use a QHYOAG with a QHY5-III 290M Mono guide camera. I am using PHD2 to guide. Will try the guide assistant and those mechanical checks.

The images actually look good. It is just the RMS value that is annoying me. I know alot of it is due to seeing. I can also see the backlash in RA on the curve. I also thought I might PEC train the mount as well and see if that helps.

Cheers,

Dilshan

Do you have periodic error which lasts for more than an 20 mins to an hour during a session ?
PEC training won’t completely buy your way out of slop in worm gears or drive belts ( or bad bearings too )
I’d try the PPEC algorithm in PHD2 first ( instead of default Hysterisis ) I’ve used it for years and it does marginally improve your guiding ( even before I tuned my mounts worm gears and drive belts )


Cheers
Martin

[Cyberman (Rob)]

Dilshan,I have an EQ6R mount and I have pec trained it through phd2. It was tracking at about .9 rms but I now down to .6 to 0.7 . Sometimes
0.5 . There was good uTube video on this. I think my mount has significant dec backlash but it doesn’t seem to affect tracking except sometimes dithering takes awhile to settle down. Haven’t been able to do any imaging since Brisbane has recently developed a Venusian atmosphere. Rob

[Dilsh]

Originally Posted by Cyberman

Dilshan,I have an EQ6R mount and I have pec trained it through phd2. It was tracking at about .9 rms but I now down to .6 to 0.7 . Sometimes
0.5 . There was good uTube video on this. I think my mount has significant dec backlash but it doesn’t seem to affect tracking except sometimes dithering takes awhile to settle down. Haven’t been able to do any imaging since Brisbane has recently developed a Venusian atmosphere. Rob

I think I did PEC train it through PHD2 using the astrobloke method on Youtube. I wonder whether alot of my guiding issues are due to seeing. I think its about time I went to a star party and showed some pros my setup. Doing it all by yourself in the backyard only gets you so far.

Originally Posted by Startrek

Do you have periodic error which lasts for more than an 20 mins to an hour during a session ?
PEC training won’t completely buy your way out of slop in worm gears or drive belts ( or bad bearings too )
Cheers
Martin

I’d try the PPEC algorithm in PHD2 first ( instead of default Hysterisis ) I’ve used it for years and it does marginally improve your guiding ( even before I tuned my mounts worm gears and drive belts )
I did the PEC training once through EQMOD and then wrote it into the mount. I am not sure if this is still functioning. I should distable that prior to using the PHD2 one I am guessing.

[alpal]

Hi Dilshan,
I think your first post was on the right track and
now the thread has diverted.

Is there anyone out there who can adjust your mount so
that it has the best possible backlash settings but not over tight?
You need that as a starting point before doing anything else.


cheers
Allan

[alpal]

Watch this -

a whole 54 minute video on how to Hypertune an EQ6 R mount:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qujs7Kt_6_c




19,448 views Aug 1, 2021 WESTCLIFF-ON-SEA
Full stripdown and rebuild of the EQ6 R PRO Bearing replacement and hypertune. Sky Watcher EQ6 R PRO stripdown and rebuild, Hypertune. Follow me while I work through the complete job of hypertuning your EQ6 R PRO. This mount is almost identical to the Orion Atlas EQ-g and the newer Atlas II www.bearings-online.co.uk Now a link to a complete kit of the bearings needed - https://www.bearings-online.co.uk/bro... 6 x 6008 2RS1 deep groove roller bearings 1x 30206 tapered roller bearing 1x 32208 Tapered roller bearing 4 x 608 2rs - these were the bearings I used but I have told the correct replacement are the metal shielded 608 2z. The ones I removed were metal shielded like these. The 608 rs are a higher quality bearing to the 608 2z and I personally have had no binding issues using these although another user reported he did. Other hypertuning services like (https://www.deepspaceproducts.com/pro...) use the plastic sealed bearings as I did but I wanted to share what I was told so you can make your own choice.

[alpal]

Also:
There are many interesting websites about hyper-tuning EQ6 mounts:
https://www.darkframeoptics.com/AZEQ..._20157396.aspx

QUOTE:
“super-finished crown rings and ultra-precision RA/DEC worm-gears for ultimate performance,
and provide super-flat PHD graphs.”

I don’t know if they are any good - could be business puffery?

cheers
Allan

[Startrek (Martin)]

Originally Posted by alpal

Watch this -

a whole 54 minute video on how to Hypertune an EQ6 R mount:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qujs7Kt_6_c




19,448 views Aug 1, 2021 WESTCLIFF-ON-SEA
Full stripdown and rebuild of the EQ6 R PRO Bearing replacement and hypertune. Sky Watcher EQ6 R PRO stripdown and rebuild, Hypertune. Follow me while I work through the complete job of hypertuning your EQ6 R PRO. This mount is almost identical to the Orion Atlas EQ-g and the newer Atlas II www.bearings-online.co.uk Now a link to a complete kit of the bearings needed - https://www.bearings-online.co.uk/bro... 6 x 6008 2RS1 deep groove roller bearings 1x 30206 tapered roller bearing 1x 32208 Tapered roller bearing 4 x 608 2rs - these were the bearings I used but I have told the correct replacement are the metal shielded 608 2z. The ones I removed were metal shielded like these. The 608 rs are a higher quality bearing to the 608 2z and I personally have had no binding issues using these although another user reported he did. Other hypertuning services like (https://www.deepspaceproducts.com/pro...) use the plastic sealed bearings as I did but I wanted to share what I was told so you can make your own choice.

Ive followed Astroblokes channel for 2 years
A total rebuild would be a last resort if you’ve exhausted every avenue and can’t get your mount to behave with reasonable performance after performing some basics with worms , belts , balance etc…. Plus with a total rebuild you really need a garage workshop area to perform the task with a bench , vice , quite a few tools etc… and a reasonable level of mechanical knowledge.
Dilshan’s images are excellent , even Star shape is good considering +2000mm focal length and with his guiding around 1 arc sec.
I have 2 of these mounts purchased nearly 18months apart , located at two different sites and have performed a mini tune plus rebalance as per my original post.
Both mounts were guiding around 0.80arc sec (average) or higher , depending on conditions using PHD2 hysterisis algorithm.
Now after the mini tune to reduce backlash , a rebalance and using the PPEC algorithm they both are capable of guiding as tight as 0.45 to 0.50 arc sec with minimal backlash and with payload up to 14.5 kg. ( Average 0.60 to 0.70 arc sec )
For the mini tune all you need is 2 Allen keys and a Philips head screwdriver. I’m sure if this is done as best a possible , the mount will be performing considerably better. I have 2 of these mounts which have benefited greatly from such a simple task

Cheers
M

[alpal]

Martin,

Ive followed Astroblokes channel for 2 years
A total rebuild would be a last resort if you’ve exhausted every avenue and can’t get your mount to behave with reasonable performance after performing some basics with worms , belts , balance etc…. Plus with a total rebuild you really need a garage workshop area to perform the task with a bench , vice , quite a few tools etc… and a reasonable level of mechanical knowledge.
Dilshan’s images are excellent , even Star shape is good considering +2000mm focal length and with his guiding around 1 arc sec.
I have 2 of these mounts purchased nearly 18months apart , located at two different sites and have performed a mini tune plus rebalance as per my original post.
Both mounts were guiding around 0.80arc sec (average) or higher , depending on conditions using PHD2 hysterisis algorithm.
Now after the mini tune to reduce backlash , a rebalance and using the PPEC algorithm they both are capable of guiding as tight as 0.45 to 0.50 arc sec with minimal backlash and with payload up to 14.5 kg. ( Average 0.60 to 0.70 arc sec )
For the mini tune all you need is 2 Allen keys and a Philips head screwdriver. I’m sure if this is done as best a possible , the mount will be performing considerably better. I have 2 of these mounts which have benefited greatly from such a simple task

Cheers
M

Hi Martin,

It's a pity your weren't in Melbourne to be able to help Dilshan.
There must be someone in Melbourne who could do that or
maybe he could watch some video and do it himself?
It looks to me like every mount could be improved
with some knowledgeable tinkering.



cheers
Allan

[Startrek (Martin)]

Originally Posted by alpal

Martin,






Hi Martin,

It's a pity your weren't in Melbourne to be able to help Dilshan.
There must be someone in Melbourne who could do that or
maybe he could watch some video and do it himself?
It looks to me like every mount could be improved
with some knowledgeable tinkering.



cheers
Allan

Allan,
I’m sure Dilshan will give the mini tune a go himself once he gets some spare time.
Just remember we are talking about mounts in the $2K to $3k range, not big money in the general scheme of things with this hobby. Not all mounts require tweaking
I have an EQ8-R mount and it’s guiding beautifully out of the box ( no tweaks ) probably one of the lucky few with these mounts as the EQ8 forum is plastered with folk who have many issues , mainly Dec backlash
Mounts in the $15k to $50k + you’d ask for your money back if you had to tweak and tune etc….

Cheers
Martin

[alpal]

Martin,

Allan,
I’m sure Dilshan will give the mini tune a go himself once he gets some spare time.
Just remember we are talking about mounts in the $2K to $3k range, not big money in the general scheme of things with this hobby. Not all mounts require tweaking
I have an EQ8-R mount and it’s guiding beautifully out of the box ( no tweaks ) probably one of the lucky few with these mounts as the EQ8 forum is plastered with folk who have many issues , mainly Dec backlash
Mounts in the $15k to $50k + you’d ask for your money back if you had to tweak and tune etc….

Cheers
Martin

Hi Martin,

I agree with you there -
yes - an expensive mount should be perfect -
but these EQ6 mounts really do give excellent performance for the price
and are almost as good if people are prepared to do some adjustments.


My NEQ6 Pro mount was improved - with an Astro-Physics
counterweight shaft.

The PHD guiding graph went from +/- 3 divisions to +/- 1 division peak

measuring as pixels - here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/247194...in/photostream
Later on I had it improved again with backlash adjustments from Roger Davis at Bintel -
down to 0.25 pixels RMS on nights of good seeing for me -
2.8 arc seconds FWHM - using a Lodestar in an OAG.
I used an 8" f6 Newt then so the FL is 1220mm and the pixel size is 8.2 microns
giving 1.39 arc seconds per pixel.
x 0.25 = 0.35 arc seconds of accuracy!
That's amazing for an NEQ6 pro mount.


cheers
Allan