My first observations!!!!!

[iceman (Mike)]

Exactly, collimation is only one factor, but the seeing is the major factor.

[ThunderChild (Chris)]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

Noooo! Don't get the Shorty Plus!! Don't you hate yours, Gazz?!
Shorty Plus is worth about $60 new! Not $139 that they sell for. The views through mine were very ordinary. That's why I sold it for only $50, after I saw what a real barlow could do. A basic 2x barlow ($50 or less) should do as well as the Shorty Plus.

Man, all this is scary for a newbie to see.
It seems impossible to know for sure that anything I buy is going to be good/bad/waste of money. At $130+, I would have hoped (assumed) it to be a fine piece. *clunk* The penny is definitely dropping that I need to hang around for a while and try out what other people have got before I go and buy some stuff myself.

[ThunderChild (Chris)]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

Seeing was horrible last night, so I'm not surprised. Stars were twinkling near zenith!

Ok - another dumb question :

I assumed "seeing" was about how clear the sky was.
So does it really refer to the amount of "twinkle" in the stars? (ie the amount that the layers of air are moving around)?

Chris

[Muddy Diver]

Congrats ThunderChild on your new hobby. Like you I, and my family, were blown away with Saturn and felt ashamed that it had always been there and we have never bothered to look closer, earlier. I am now just as impressed with Jupiter and it's moons. Awesome. I remember reading that Callisto (one of the moons) could contain a salty lake beneath it's surface and is the place in our solar system where scientists believe they can prove that life, if it exists/existed there, is not a fluke and simply has to be evident anywhere else that has the environment to support it. Fascinating!

The discussion on Cassini's division is of interest to me and has sparked a few more questions from this hungry beginner.

While I could never get bored looking at Saturn, I am kind of over the initial rush that you get each time and am looking to push the scope or at least learn its capabilities. In saying, I have tried to resolve the division on a couple of occasions and for a split second feel that it appeared and quickly dissappeared.

With my 4" Mak (1350mm Fl) and 6mm ep (225X mag) does anyone think I must be imagining I've seen it (cos I am) or do I simply need more light gathering power. The F ratio is quite high (13) due to the smallish diameter.

I have also a 10mm ep giving 132X but feel the image would be too small.

2nd question. When using a barlow do you lose much light at the same time? i.e Should I expect a better image from a 10mm ep with a 2X barlow versus a 5mm ep for example. What is the difference in image using the two set ups?

Any help is, as always, greatly appreciated.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Yes, don't rush out and spend big yet. It could be that the Shorty Plus is not that bad, and I just got unlucky and got a dud (??). You bought the 6" rather than the 8" because you didn't want to spend too much on your first scope (and saved $100)! Now we're already talking about getting $300 worth of accessories to look at Saturn! Welcome to astronomy!

You'll see plenty more with just what you have when seeing is good and scope's collimated. If you want a bit more, then a 15mm GS or Synta plossl + barlow for under $50 each would do you very nicely for quite some time. But collimating eyepiece should be the 1st priority.

I saw 2" eyepieces mentioned here. I don't think your scope has a 2" focuser, does it?

[Starcrazzy]

hey thunderchild, did ya get thet moon atlass, i pm'd you the link..??and also a link for a red dot finder..this saved me hours of frustration, when you start looking for dso's you will relish it..trust me..i bet it won't be long untill your out there hunting down the messier list,I was fortunate when i started scorpious was high in the east and i could locate a good handfull of messier objects from the printed maps in one evening...its when i truely got addicted, there are still heaps of dso's to see this time of year..the magellenic clouds are optimal for viewing at the moment, and the good thing is dso's love lower powers of mag..also have a look for tucana 47 and the eta carina, all in the south...

enjoy

[ving (David)]

hi chris,

great stuff looking at these things hey

with 1/2 decent seeing you should be able to the casini div easy
hell, i've done it in a 60mm! with goo seeing you will get subtle colours in the actual disc of saturn.
the sky's the limit now dude!!!

next purchase i'd go collimation tool, then either an eyepiece of barlow.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have resolved the Casisin div with all three of my scopes with ease. The 6 inch refractor does it with out a swet!! on 12 or 14mm eye peace and the 76mm Borge fitted with a 2 inch Meade ultra wide 14mm, it can be done on a clear night also.

I find the focus on the big refractor allows a much more crisp division to appear, where my experience with reflectors, is that the smaller ones will blur the edges slight and loose the division. My biggest investment that made the difference on the Mead, was the "Bobs nobs"... on the focus.

regards


Tony

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Muddy, I'd say your 6mm probably goes to as high a mag as your 4" Mak can handle.

In my limited experience, a good eyepiece in a good barlow will be a lot better than an mediocre equivalent focal length eyepiece (e.g., barlowed 12mm UO HD ortho vs 6mm GS Plossl). And if you are talking just basic EPs like budget plossls, then barlowed 10 or 12mm will still be much more usable than a native 5 or 6mm because of eye relief. If you buy a different design short FL EP with more eye relief (ER), it will have the extra barlow-type lenses inside to extend the ER, so a simple EP like an ortho in a good barlow should be just as good if not better.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

If you intend to get a barlow, I bought the GS 2" 2x barlow. $79 I think it was from Andrews.

The advantage of the 2" barlow is it will take 1.25" & 2" EP's. I have heard several people say in here that they wished they had bought the 2" barlow instead of the 1.25" because when they eventually bought 2" EP's they could'nt barlow them.

And if you ever end up with a 30mm GS 2" SuperView, the barlow gets rid of the abberations around the edges!

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

While everyone can see, not everyone can SEE. The eye needs to be trained to register what it images into the brain. Dark adapted, Averted vision, deep breathing, lack of nicotine all change the way we see.
If you're looking for fine detail even the orientation of your head relative to the eyepiece can make a difference. Practise, practise, practise!!!!!!
If you make a sketch of what you do see; you'll find after awhile you record more and more detail.
Remember most of the keen dedicated amateurs prior to the 1930's were using small refractors/ reflectors and managed to do great things.

[iceman (Mike)]

Good point Merlin.. when I first started I could only make out 2 brown belts of Jupiter, nothing else.

With practise and experience, knowing what you're looking for, waiting until it's higher in the sky, hoping for a good night of seeing, all change what you can see, and now on Jupiter I can see much much more detail than I could back then.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Yep Merl, you are right!

Thats like I mentioned in my post about the Orion neb. I suggested that people stare at it for at least 5 minutes if they want to see the pink & green gas!

Now, because I know what I am looking for, it only takes me about 10 seconds to see both colours. I trained my eye to know what to look for.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Ken, Both scopes in question the 6" Dob and the 4" Mak have 1.25" focusers, I believe, so 2" accessories won't work.

Re cassini div, you don't need to practice squat. It's obvious to most first timers when conditions are right. It is true that you will see more and more with practice.
Mars is a tough one for newcomers, even when it's relatively close to Earth. I showed Mars to about 15 people a month or so ago through the ED80. Only one could see any surface detail. And he was the only person there who owned a scope.

[RAJAH235]

If you've only got 1.25" E/Pcs, what's wrong with the Meade # 140 telenegative Barlow? Works extemely well. It's an apo too. L.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Did anyone mention using AVERTED vision?
Sometimes it really helps to not actually LOOK at what you are trying to see. Just by using your peripheral vision you can tease out finer details.
Make sure your eyes are fully dark adapted before looking through the eyepiece.