Nasa astronauts are crackpots

[musab]

Advanced beings with the ability to traverse interstellar/intergalactic space, voyage to Earth and make crop circles and frighten some low-IQ hicks.

Compelling.

another sagan android parroting what he was told carl sagan was
a good man but was dead wrong their new god is Neil deGrasse Tyson
both have done good work to advance astronomy thats about it but both
are not fit to lick the boots of dr edger mitchell or gordon cooper.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

Goodness, you don't think they'd bother to come by space do you?
Much easier to slip into dim 7 there and then slip out here than mess about traveling LIGHT YEARS!
No need to exceed the speed of light and no need to waste all that energy.

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by jenchris

Goodness, you don't think they'd bother to come by space do you?
Much easier to slip into dim 7 there and then slip out here than mess about traveling LIGHT YEARS!
No need to exceed the speed of light and no need to waste all that energy.

Must agree dimensionnal travel would be much simpler although energy requirements would still IMO be high to create a dimensional rift large enough for a craft to pass through

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Must agree dimensionnal travel would be much simpler although energy requirements would still IMO be high to create a dimensional rift large enough for a craft to pass through

The only way to find out is do the experiments.....scientists pontificating on theory have never solved any problems, only created more questions in need of answering. Use theory as a guideline and then run the experiments to either confirm or reject the theory.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

run the experiments to either confirm or reject the theory.

I already did Earthling -

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by musab

Remember now boys and girls your all
to listen to peterm dont listen to that
crackpot who walked on the moon whats
his name edger mitchell and that other
guy who went around the earth 22 times
it doesnt matter how many phd,s they
have or that dutch four star nato general
peterm is the authority on everything.

Hey Mister ,if you cannot have a discusion without talking C*** and calling people names then don't bother posting

[xelasnave]

Here is one list of UFO reports.

http://www.nicap.org/bluebook/unknowns.htm

If on the level it seems some reports have been made by folk you would be inclined to take seriously with curious radar observations to boot, and yet we still have nothing "solid" it seems.

However as strange as some of these report may be the fact is there is no explaination which means just that...no explanation so until there is one for folk to conclude aliens provides an explanation is unreasonable.

I think answers are more likely to be found by studying human behaviour rather than alien behaviour

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by jenchris

I already did Earthling -

Who said I was from this planet

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Here is one list of UFO reports.

http://www.nicap.org/bluebook/unknowns.htm

If on the level it seems some reports have been made by folk you would be inclined to take seriously with curious radar observations to boot, and yet we still have nothing "solid" it seems.

However as strange as some of these report may be the fact is there is no explaination which means just that...no explanation so until there is one for folk to conclude aliens provides an explanation is unreasonable.

I think answers are more likely to be found by studying human behaviour rather than alien behaviour

alex

What do you want as "solid" evidence. A piece of the craft???. Photo opportunities with the bugs themselves???. A book explaining why quantum physics is taught in alien kindergarten???. This insistence on ridiculously impossible procurement of evidence is nothing more than an attempt to get out of looking at the evidence that's already there by those that don't want to take the time to actually look at it. Mainly because their points of view don't include the possibility that something extraordinary is happening. Basically, they don't want to upset their little sandbox of reality by upsetting the applecart.

You think that science deals with evidence any more reliable than what we see with many UFO reports??? I have some very bad news for all of you that think so. Have any of you ever seen an atom, or experienced a neutrino passing through your body???. How do you know that stars are powered by nuclear fusion processes....ever seen it happening first hand???. Think everything you see is solid???. Think that galaxy you stare at in the eyepiece each night looks like it does now, or is even in the same place as it appears to be??. Don't for one minute think that just because a scientist says so, that something is on the up and up. In some cases, they know no better than you do what's going on. Only what they think they know. Theory doesn't make it right, or gospel anything. All a theory happens to be is an idea of what they believe to be occurring. There's nothing wrong in listening to and taking notice of what a scientist tells you. In general, they have a better handle on the workings of their chosen field than the general person on the street. Even the interested "amateur". However, they're not the paragon of all knowledge nor are they even necessarily correct in their assumptions they keep as part of their scientific paradigm. Use the brains you were given and think for yourselves, with the advice you're given or find for yourselves. Do cultivate a logical and rational approach to whatever you're interested in, but don't let yourself fall into the trap of being anal about sticking to the accepted ideas and/or methods of doing things. Be a critical thinker, not a skeptic. There is a very big difference between the two. One that really has to be learnt through experience and example.

[xelasnave]

Yes Carl a piece of craft would go a long way to convince me, but I would want to see the craft flying before you cut off a bit...and even then would I be convinced and not wonder if I was being mislead.

I find no difficulty in being both a critical thinker and a skeptic which probably has to with being on the planet too long. I have little faith in an eyewitness from a lifetime of disappointing experience that even the best witness can be mistaken.

You are talking to a man who is only half on with most of what you would call accepted science so as far as UFOs etc go I have no plans of applying critical analysis to this matter ... I do enjoy reading others thoughts on the matter looking at reports etc but I choose to remain unconvinced of anything.... yet...

As you said it is not up to you to prove anything but on reading your advise following that statement earlier I did take time to read anything I could find..hence the blue book find.

Whether they are here have been here etc does not worry me one way or the other....

Funny I went to the movies on Monday night to take in "Cowboys and Aliens" I enjoyed it actually but I am pretty sure it is not a true story but am happy to entertain even such an extreme possibility as possible.

The final reality is I suspect there is still a great deal we are uninformed upon, and as you have mentioned in the past..who knows what will be correct and accepted science in a century or two.

We have achieved so much in a short time but we forget just how short a time we have been at it....the concept of the photon is not yet a century old (and of course the wave particle duality less again).
It was not long ago the atom was really considered a fundamental particle of course we have moved past that point.. and my point is history is always unfolding..one man after another one civilization after another...there have been many of each with little trace as time errodes memories and buildings etc.

Still there is little with twich I would disagree upon in your observations and enjoy your passion when talking about the matters that pop up.

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Alex....a critical thinker is open minded and will consider the possibilities. A skeptic is not. Skeptics invariably jump at the gun to dismiss what they hear without considering anything apart from their own version of reality through the lens of their egos. Critical thinkers take a subject on its merits and will not judge it on ego or perceived paradigm. Critical thinkers never attack the messenger, skeptics pretty much thrive on ad hom attacks.

That's just some of the differences between the two.

Funny I went to the movies on Monday night to take in "Cowboys and Aliens"

"Gunfight at the O.K Space Station" Looks like a good movie, actually. Only seen the previews, but it's got some good actors in it

Yes Carl a piece of craft would go a long way to convince me, but I would want to see the craft flying before you cut off a bit...and even then would I be convinced and not wonder if I was being mislead.

I don't think those flying it would appreciate anyone chopping their mode of transport into pieces just to sate someone's curiosity!!!!

Needless to say the only way you're ever going to get that proof is if you see one crash and go grab a piece. However, you'd never keep it for long. The military would inevitably find out and come and get it, just as they would descend on the crash very quickly and clean up the area almost like they'd hoovered everything up. You might be lucky and find some bits lying around, but given the subject matter, I doubt it. The area would've been gone over with a fine toothed comb.

If after all that you still had a feeling you were being misled, there'd be nothing anyone, not even the aliens themselves, could do to convince a person like that, of otherwise. What would be the point.

You know what would be funny...if you out at somewhere like Coona' or anywhere out west looking through your scope, one night, and then you felt a tap on your shoulder. Only to turn around and see a Grey standing there and have it ask could it take a look through your scope

[TrevorW]

Whether they exist or not is mote, the thought that they may exist alien or not opens my mind to the realms of what may be considered impossible and improbable with wonderment.

As another said

"Tha age of space travel is no longer and age of secrets. Space travel which aspires to suns and stars also plumbs the abysses of our past for us. Gods and priests, kings and heroes emerge form the dark chasms. We must challenge them to deliver up their secrets for we now have the means to find out all about our past and what may be our future"

[Kevnool (Kev)]

Funny thread i love it.

Keep me laughing.

[KenGee (Kenith Gee)]

Proof you can't handle the proof....what's next astrolgy can find lots of people who thinks that works.

[xelasnave]

Well I live in a very remote place in a forrest no one knows I am there really and I suppose I could have a shed full of space craft ..who would know...mayby they live further down the road ..who would know.

I am being open minded in the extreme.

But if there is substance to any of these reports and something is going on er down whatever then where do they come from...

Mars of course

They live under the surface and come here for ...I resist the urge to mention anything covered in the abduction stories...lets say holidays... and they are actually the Neandathals we thought we had wiped out years ago... but they just got smarter and moved next door...Mars that is. The methane observed comes from the under ground cities...mmm as fanciful as this is at least we have some methane to observe which is more than any credible documented explained verified reviewed reports about UFOs etc.

I am trying to fight the urge to be sckeptical and have thought a fair bit about it so as not to dismiss it too fast and qualify as a thinker in this case...still I dont want to be remembered for giving any time to this subject really... its fun I guess...mmm I remember what fun is...

I defy anyone to prove the underground Mars idea wrong but please treat it with extreme scepticism.

alex

[firstlight (Tony)]

There was a time that I believed most of what is purported to be "factual" and "eye-witness accounts" and I have since learned that what one person sees and perceives is not necessarily the same as the person next to them. A case in point: At an astrocamp in the early 90's a group of about a dozen amateurs witnessed one heck of a fireball. One of the witnesses stated that he observed it split into a least 2 pieces before extinguishing. I was standing next to him and watched it disappear and I did not see this but about half of our group agreed with him. Anther group of amateurs were observing 50 or so km away and after we spoke to them we discovered about the same ratio of split or no split. I know it is a simple story but shows that anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all... our brains interpret everything we see to make sense of the world. Mick viewed the fact that some saw one thing and that others saw another in two separate groups as evidence that in fact the meteor did break up overhead, and I do believe he is right. However in Brisbane another story was developing, witnesses also saw this slow moving meteor and reported it to radio stations and the like and it was immediately seized by the local UFO nutters as obvious evidence of UFO activity... these guy didn't witness it, most got their info 2nd and 3rd hand, yet they ruled the airwaves and print media as authorities. When we contacted the newspaper who printed the story and let them know that what was seen was not unidentified, had creditable witnesses who knew what it was, we got a response like "Oh, it was not a spaceship?" Their faces dropped and they didn't want to know us.

This year at the Queensland Astrofest Charlie Lineweaver spoke about "Are we Alone" and his argument was pretty convincing that there is no reason at all for the rise of intelligence. Over 200 million years the dinosaurs ruled the Earth with out the need for a superior intelligence. No other intelligence has arisen on this planet other than homo sapiens from Africa, despite the fact that several continents have been isolated for tens to hundreds of million years. The expectation that if there is no superior intelligence occupying the top of the tree then one must arise he referred to as the "Planet of the Apes fallacy" or some such. The only place that we know that intelligence arose appears to have only occurred once, and "trawling through material on the internet for proof" shows that that is very much in debate. Getting back to Charlie, he is very much of the opinion that non terrestrial (that is Earth) life is not a foregone conclusion because there is no reason that it should or has to occur.

I myself cannot believe that there is so much universe out there that life, even intelligent life, does not exist or did not exist or will not exist. I do find his arguments pretty convincing that there may be less that I had previously thought. Sadly this may mean that it is extremely unlikely that any other intelligence may visit us. I can hope, but I fear that he is on the right track.

BTW, I do remember those satellites Peter, and it was one of the coolest things I have ever seen.

I know a bit of a rant and gum flapping, and I expect many indignant responses and finger pointing. However that doesn't change the facts... No other intelligent life on this planet (yes, yes I know, dolphins and whales are clever and have large brains, but they have not filled that empty niche as supreme intelligence of the oceans), either now or any evidence there existed in the past and there has been ample opportunity.

[firstlight (Tony)]

Originally Posted by jenchris

There was a case a few years back here on the Gold Coast - three large V shaped occultations of the sky - about 14km on a side over M1 at Gaven
At least a dozen people I know saw something but couldn't photo it - it was black on a dark night - just the stars disappeared - and the sky was 'darker'

I'm just a bit puzzled how to measure something in the sky... 14km object 14 km away would take up a sizeable chunk of the sky, but you would have to know the distance to calculate the size, and if it were closer, bigger again. How did they measure the size? And if they blocked the stars wouldn't startrails shown exactly what was in the sky?

You know a mate has an astronomy education site and got a couple of calls that the "Moon disappeared then reappeared then disappeared" earlier this month. I saw it too, it that really strange and rare phenonoma that amateurs hardly ever see... I believe it is called clouds

[renormalised (Carl)]

that really strange and rare phenonoma that amateurs hardly ever see... I believe it is called clouds

Unfortunately, they're all too common these days. Especially in summer.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by firstlight

This year at the Queensland Astrofest Charlie Lineweaver spoke about "Are we Alone" and his argument was pretty convincing that there is no reason at all for the rise of intelligence. Over 200 million years the dinosaurs ruled the Earth with out the need for a superior intelligence. No other intelligence has arisen on this planet other than homo sapiens from Africa, despite the fact that several continents have been isolated for tens to hundreds of million years. The expectation that if there is no superior intelligence occupying the top of the tree then one must arise he referred to as the "Planet of the Apes fallacy" or some such. The only place that we know that intelligence arose appears to have only occurred once, and "trawling through material on the internet for proof" shows that that is very much in debate. Getting back to Charlie, he is very much of the opinion that non terrestrial (that is Earth) life is not a foregone conclusion because there is no reason that it should or has to occur.

I myself cannot believe that there is so much universe out there that life, even intelligent life, does not exist or did not exist or will not exist. I do find his arguments pretty convincing that there may be less that I had previously thought. Sadly this may mean that it is extremely unlikely that any other intelligence may visit us. I can hope, but I fear that he is on the right track.

With respect to Prof Lineweaver...everything he may have said at Astrofest on this matter was nothing more than supposition and conjecture, based on very little or no evidence. He can't verify any of the assertions he has made, so all he has proffered is nothing more than opinion. It's not even based on theoretical grounds.

Of course he can spin a convincing argument, and gain a captive audience simply because he has the educational background and reputation behind him. But that doesn't make anything he has said correct. Once you've developed a good background in science and understand how science works, you will come to understand that despite what you're told, nothing is a clear cut as it seems. We are far from knowing anything about the possibilities of life, and even intelligent life in the universe. We barely even understand how it came to be on this planet, yet we do know that not very long after its formation, life appeared. That's really all we know, for the most part. Yet you hear scientist make statements that, in all honesty, they know they can't hold up to the glare of objective scrutiny. But they still make them because they, themselves, are trying to make sense of what they see, and/or to hide from the truth that they don't know as much as they'd like to think they do. Especially from those that hold them to their word as someone who has answers.

A scientist who was honest with themselves would know that they don't know the answers, and would say so. Proffering opinion as fact is not honest. Even if it's unintentional on the part of the person offering that opinion.

[Barrykgerdes]

Well
I am absolutely sure that alien life forms have invaded earth. They regularly start up controversial threads on this forum (and other forums I suspect till they get banned), and always sign their names with pseudonyms.

They seek to take over by introducing selected topics that have two schools of thought that are diametrically opposite with no mean ground and no hope of one side or other convincing the other.

It goes under the general heading of "Divide and Conquer"

There! That should stir the pot a little.

Barry