They don't have a clue.....

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If you want a rational analysis of where floods might affect you. Just try and insure your house against flood on a known flood plain. I am totally insured against flood (for free) as I am over 50m over any flood plain! Gee the insurance companies will cover me for an eventuality that will never happen!

Bert

Biblical proportions,

"God, whats an Ark"

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by blindman

Absolutely with you Peter!

M/s Gillard should be sentenced to live at the most affected area for at least 2 months.

Nah, it's more likely "Joh" Bjelke-Petersens fault, his administration was ultimately recognised as institutionally corrupt and in power for nearly two decades. Flo's still alive make her live there.

Mike

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

Unfortunately the only way to avoid these events is to not build on flood plains we have to realise we can't change the rivers they will eventually win in the end.

Pollies might even consider replanting some of the millions of trees that they allowed to be ripped down in QLD over the past 25 years. Trees tend to stop erosion, trap water and slow its velocity across the ground...

[avandonk]

Here is a hint!
If you have thick deep alluvial soils beneath your feet you are in a flood plain. By all means grow stuff etc.
When the water that brought this nice fertile soil to where you are comes again do not be surprised!

Bert

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I'm convinced authorities don't get it, I am not familiar with the QLD local politics but here in Victoria in the shire of the Yarra Ranges where they had the bush fires only 2 years ago, they are now introducing new policies regarding vegetation, ..... Noone should cut up a fallen tree because it's habitat for some bug, They don't want firebreaks built, let's have net growth in trees and burnable stuff as priority number 1, trees have become sacred.

http://www.yarraranges.vic.gov.au/fi...y_Nov_2010.pdf

It's a chug of a read, but they never learn anything.

I'm sure the same problems exist up north, but just in a different context.

Maybe "they" ARE finally learning.... For 200+ years we have been fighting a losing battle with nature and its about time we started thinking differently.

The country burns, the country dries, the country floods...

I mean, how obvious is this:

Build on a flood plain..., you will flood...,
Build in a forest...,you'll burn...,
Rip up the environment and your topsoil blows away..,
Bugger up the ecology and you'll bugger yourself up as well.

In short, screw with nature and nature will screw you back. Suck it up and start using a bit of common sense.

Are we learning yet?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Here is a hint!
If you have thick deep alluvial soils beneath your feet you are in a flood plain. By all means grow stuff etc.
When the water that brought this nice fertile soil to where you are comes again do not be surprised!

Bert

We can't all live on the sides of hills and mountains. There's even less space to build on and not all hillsides are stable enough. Plus, cut down the trees on the hills and you'll get the same problems, only magnified by rampant erosion etc. People have to live somewhere, but what we need to do is work with nature...not against it. Also, not doing stupid things which will make matters worse when the floods come...like building dams in the wrong place, or the wrong types of dams etc.

In any case Bert, if it floods in your house, we're all in trouble!!!!. Either one of three things have happened...a tsunami from an asteroid impact or huge earthquake, the land sank (also due to a huge earthquake), or Antarctica melted

[Alchemy (Clive)]

Originally Posted by el_draco

Maybe "they" ARE finally learning.... For 200+ years we have been fighting a losing battle with nature and its about time we started thinking differently.

The country burns, the country dries, the country floods...

I mean, how obvious is this:
Build in a forest...,you'll burn...,
Suck it up and start using a bit of common sense.

Are we learning yet?

Fires used to burn naturally, now we put them out until they reach unstoppable proportions. I'm all for nature, but not allowing you to cut up a dead log ????

I find here in Melbourne the greenies live in the concrete jungle of the inner suburbs and then dictate to the rest of us what they don't have to deal with... As they turn on their air-conditioning, hop into the merc, eat their food from plastic containers.....

I don't disagree that there are risks living in some environments but why put fuel on the fire.

[rat156]

Peter,

This is not the pollies fault, particularly not one of the recent batch. They built Wivenhoe to flood "proof" Brisbane. Unfortunately the amount of rain here over the last six months has been way above the norm.

Wivenhoe has been releasing water for the past six months, it simply isn't big enough to deal with this amount of water. It is at over 150% full and can go to 200%, but it must release some water.

Toowoomba was hit by an extreme weather event, no dam will stop that, the same water was responsible for most of the destruction around Withcott etc. This is the same rain that is now combining with the Wivenhoe output and a king tide to produce the flooding in Brisbane. This rainfall is outside the Wivenhoe catchment area and there is no logical place to put a dam in the Lockyer valley.

If your going to cast the blame about, get the facts right first.

Perhaps something constructive would be good, like "I've donated $100 to the Flood relief appeal, who's going to match it?" would be better than stirring the pot and having a swipe at the pollies?

Cheers
Stuart

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by renormalised

We can't all live on the sides of hills and mountains. There's even less space to build on and not all hillsides are stable enough. Plus, cut down the trees on the hills and you'll get the same problems, only magnified by rampant erosion etc. People have to live somewhere, but what we need to do is work with nature...not against it. Also, not doing stupid things which will make matters worse when the floods come...like building dams in the wrong place, or the wrong types of dams etc.

In any case Bert, if it floods in your house, we're all in trouble!!!!. Either one of three things have happened...a tsunami from an asteroid impact or huge earthquake, the land sank (also due to a huge earthquake), or Antarctica melted

My place is about a few kilometers from the junction of the Diamond Creek and Yarra River. Eltham is hilly and the soils are barren. I have seen the floods here when I was a kid. I have seen many bushfires as well.

I was not being smug! My brother had a house in Goodna in 1974 close to the river and the water came within inches of his floorboards. It was one of those very practical QL houses with 14ft stilts.

My simple point was to not blame anyone but ourselves.

Bert

[mangrovedutch (Dutch)]

Just to weigh in on the subject - we are people who think that we are smart and can control mother nature. I have sad news and the concequences are obvious. We live say 80-100 years and this planet is how old? We don't have a concept of what it is like to live to 500 years old, and data keeping has only been around for a few hundred years. In the Civil and Surveying game you work according to Q100, which translates to a 1 in 100 year flood. I assume that they use the data from the 1890's flood for this.
Things are going to get worse, with the population expansion and all the new sub-division popping up with their storm water systems funneling into nearby creeks at a high velocity.
We are still to see a decent cyclone this season, one has crossed the Qld coast this year as a Category 1. They are expecting 6-8 to cross the Qld coast this season, and the way the low systems are travelling this season, we will see at least one to get to the Fraser coast. For those interested, have a look at the CSIRO ocean current site and have a look how warm the waters are off Fraser, and how the currents are running from north Qld. A category 3 hanging off Fraser, ground that simply cannot absorb any more 500mm of rain - you do the maths.
I'm not writing this as a scary topic, just being realistic. And there is simply no point blaming what ever political party or authority, they can't and WILL not control Mother Nature. Humans are smart (all our engineers come from university with a head full of information that at best is based on a couple of hundred years), but not that smart that they can fortell and prepare for natural disasters and the force of Mother Nature

Regards, Dutch

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

My place is about a few kilometers from the junction of the Diamond Creek and Yarra River. Eltham is hilly and the soils are barren. I have seen the floods here when I was a kid. I have seen many bushfires as well.

I was not being smug! My brother had a house in Goodna in 1974 close to the river and the water came within inches of his floorboards. It was one of those very practical QL houses with 14ft stilts.

My simple point was to not blame anyone but ourselves.

Bert

The problem with people building in the bush is they allow trees to grow too close to their property. It's only sensible to have a decent firebreak and cleared parcel of land around any buildings you may have. Although, I know how bad fires can get and in the worst of them, nothing is guaranteed to keep your house and such, safe.

I know what your point was, and it's a good point. However, the authorities also have a responsibility to make sure that everyone is safe and that measures are taken to ensure this. When all they do is pass the buck, do things half-heartedly or not at all, and make all the promises in the world and then forget them, you have to start questioning the competency and the integrity of those in authority and whether they're fit to be in those positions. It's then your responsibility to make sure you get someone who can and will do the job and the right thing by everyone.

In any case, I still stand by the antediluvian proportions of the disaster that would befall us all if your place flooded. Let me know when the water reaches your floor boards, I'll go climb a very high tree

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Peter as usual you are at best misinformed at worst a stirrer. The Missisipi is just as these rivers that have a FLOOD PLAIN. Even the the powers that be have come to the conclusion that flood mitigation on the Mississipi have only moved floods to other areas.
Bert

Not stirring Bert, just observing the bleedin' obvious.

....and I must have missed the levee system last time I was in Brisbane.

Sure it is hard to protect any flood plain city against extreme events (eg Katrina breaching the Mississipi levees in New Orleans in some 50 locations)...but tropical cyclones are rare in SE Queensland...hence a Brisbane River levee breach (if they actually existed) would be very unlikely.

Given the extra energy in our atmosphere (i.e. climate change) I would expect extreme weather events such as this to become more frequent.

But as long as we can download, well, whatever, quickly over the NBN...as this is "the most important nation building project of our time"... we should be happy.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by mangrovedutch

Just to weigh in on the subject - we are people who think that we are smart and can control mother nature. I have sad news and the concequences are obvious. We live say 80-100 years and this planet is how old? We don't have a concept of what it is like to live to 500 years old, and data keeping has only been around for a few hundred years. In the Civil and Surveying game you work according to Q100, which translates to a 1 in 100 year flood. I assume that they use the data from the 1890's flood for this.
Things are going to get worse, with the population expansion and all the new sub-division popping up with their storm water systems funneling into nearby creeks at a high velocity.
We are still to see a decent cyclone this season, one has crossed the Qld coast this year as a Category 1. They are expecting 6-8 to cross the Qld coast this season, and the way the low systems are travelling this season, we will see at least one to get to the Fraser coast. For those interested, have a look at the CSIRO ocean current site and have a look how warm the waters are off Fraser, and how the currents are running from north Qld. A category 3 hanging off Fraser, ground that simply cannot absorb any more 500mm of rain - you do the maths.
I'm not writing this as a scary topic, just being realistic. And there is simply no point blaming what ever political party or authority, they can't and WILL not control Mother Nature. Humans are smart (all our engineers come from university with a head full of information that a best is based on a couple of hundred years), but not that smart that they can fortell and prepare for natural disasters and the force of Mother Nature

Regards, Dutch

That's what I've been saying. However, I've also been saying that the authorities can and have passed the buck when it comes to doing what they can about alleviating those problems they can control. They make promises, then don't keep them. Let some other dumb twit handle it. They're too narrowly focused, time wise, in everything they do. Most can't see out beyond the ends of their noses, so to speak. Try to get anyone in authority to make plans beyond 3 to 4 years and you'll be certain of disappointment. Even that time frame is stretching it too far, most of the time.

It also means that responsibility and common sense, along with sound knowledge needs to be used. Unfortunately, all of that is seriously lacking.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by rat156

Peter,

This is not the pollies fault, particularly not one of the recent batch.

Stuart

Agreed many Pollies have come and gone since the 1974 event.

That said, there has been dearth of heavy engineering projects through-out Oz ever since.

No national irrigation, road or rail systems of merit.

( O.K. ..The school halls..at least those above water...are pretty good...... )

I suspect this is beacuse Board-level engineers have been slowly replaced by accountants.

The only way it will change is if we (voters) get in some faces and make it so.

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Fires used to burn naturally, now we put them out until they reach unstoppable proportions. I'm all for nature, but not allowing you to cut up a dead log ????

I find here in Melbourne the greenies live in the concrete jungle of the inner suburbs and then dictate to the rest of us what they don't have to deal with... As they turn on their air-conditioning, hop into the merc, eat their food from plastic containers.....

There is argument out there that says leaving fallen trees acually reduces the spread of fire and if you've ever watched it burn over open grassland you'll understand the logic in that. Dead logs have numerous GOOD reason for being there; neatness not being one of them.

I've lived in Melbourne, and Northern Victoria, and I can assure you there are a hell of a lot more "greenies" not living in the cities. I've seen plenty of "greenies" living in nightmare conditions to protect the ancient forests in Tassie being bulldozed by big business for a couple of $ a ton for woodchips and all I can say is these "greenies" have a hell of a lot more guts than most.

Hyberbole does not help in this situation.

There is good arguement for staying out of some environments altogether but we can live in these areas provided we do a bit of learning and use common sense and accept that we live there on natures terms.

If you are going to build in an area where there is even a 100 year risk of flooding for instance, ACCEPT that you are going to get flooded. You can't get flood insurance in these areas for the simple reason that insurance companies have done their research. If you still buy/build there..., be it on your own head.

Instead of expecting the enviroment to bend around us, time we did a bit of bending ourselves dont you think? Even in ludicous locations like Kinglake, houses survived because they were well build with fire prevention systems/ bunkers.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Precisely, Peter. We need to be more assertive and make the pollies etc, do what we want to see being done. Not just wait till the next election. Otherwise, it will be business as usual and nothing will get done.

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

I know what your point was, and it's a good point. However, the authorities also have a responsibility to make sure that everyone is safe and that measures are taken to ensure this. When all they do is pass the buck, do things half-heartedly or not at all, and make all the promises in the world and then forget them, you have to start questioning the competency and the integrity of those in authority and whether they're fit to be in those positions. It's then your responsibility to make sure you get someone who can and will do the job and the right thing by everyone.

... And at what point does individual reponsibility kick in?

[mangrovedutch (Dutch)]

It also means that responsibility and common sense, along with sound knowledge needs to be used. Unfortunately, all of that is seriously lacking.

That's an oximoron isn't it LOL. Humans can engineer a lot of things, and sometimes get it right. In Holland in 1954 the dykes burst and halve the country dissappeared under 2 metres of water - an Engineering issue. It is all based on maths and physics of an assumed scenario, and there will be mistakes made. Whivenhoe was build to prevent exactly what is happening now, and the water level is breaking the 74 marks. People are like rabbits (population explosion) and demand to live somewhere. The Gold Coast is a good example with all the island communities - Hope Island is built on a swamp, there are a couple of swamp dozers buried there, because they couldn't be retrieved. I totally agree with your comment, but we can't change what we have now, maybe we can improve somethings - but we will lose the fight against natures powers, we cannot conceive of what it is capable of - we get a glimps every so often. Nothing will change, more and more people will occupy SEQ which means more and more will be affected by what is a normal cycle in Earths history. Millions of dollars will now be thrown into a commision on how to prevent this happening again, which IMHO is a waste of money. We simply cannot stop these things from happening. What is to say that Wivenhoe can hold 200% capacity, do you trust the engineering on the dam wall? I've spend the last 20 years in the Civil Construction game, and I have seen and understand the way storm water systems are build and erosion controls are constructed. I have also seen man hole steel lids blow 10-15 metres into the air, because the Q100 was wrong and the pressure and volume hydrolically was never calculated for. I have lost faith in the pollies and engineers, we are simply not prepared for the worst, and we can't calculate measures to prevent it until we have experienced it. All we can do is model scenarios with the information we have now. We are not done yet......

Regards, Dutch

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by el_draco

... And at what point does individual reponsibility kick in?

Use your common sense....your responsibility to make sure you have good governance and properly managed laws and other measures is ongoing, all the time. If the authorities aren't doing right by everyone, then say so and make it known to them that change needs to be made. One person can't do it all, alone. It's everyone's job to see things being done. If a council isn't doing what's needed and what the community wants, boot them out. You don't have to wait until an election to do so. Same with any government. The general public is too lax in this respect and those that gain power play on this for all it's worth. Remember, they have their jobs on our sufferance, not because they have any right to them.

In so far as your own personal responsibilities, they should be all too obvious. Especially when the safety of yourself, your family and your community is concerned. Claiming ignorance of these is no excuse, nor is it a defence for anything that may occur because of your own negligence.

The whole comparison between Tasmanian forest and fires occurring in the bush is a furphy. I have no problems with wanting to keep those ancient forests intact...and so they should be. But the reason for clearing undergrowth out of those areas near habitation is to reduce the risk of a conflagration occurring in those areas. My father was a state firewarden for the Sutherland Shire in the 60's. The reason why they used to do controlled burnoffs (like the Aborigines, but for different reasons) is to reduce that risk of having a wildfire go out of control, like all the major fires that have happened where the undergrowth had built up to such an extent (due to the mismanagement by local/state government and misguided people in those areas) that the fuel load on the ground was prime for a conflagration to occur. A grassfire is nothing....wait till you've gone through a full blown forest fire where the fire crowns through the trees at 200mph and the temp underneath the flames is hot enough to melt a fire tender. You'll then know why that undergrowth and fuel can't be allowed to get too thick and why it needs to be periodically cleared.

[rmcconachy]

Originally Posted by el_draco

... And at what point does individual reponsibility kick in?

Rarely in this blame, or better yet sue, somebody else world. I believe that we should help those who are hit by misfortune but shouldn't it also be accepted that building a house in the middle of a eucalypt forest or a regular flood plain (I'm taking about the more extreme examples here) is not a very good idea? Doubly so for those who don't even bother with insurance (somebody else can bail me out). Or perhaps not given how things seem to be...