And you thought Oz Astro-retailers were bad...

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Sorry Claude, but this gets raised almost monthly here on IIS, seriously, monthly. Every man and his dog has a whine about local prices, then it all goes away.

Why did this thread degrad from Peter's original genuine thread, to another thread criticising local dealers and prices?

Actually it didn't but moreso in general prices persei across the board

as someone with accounting background wouldn't it be more profitable to sell 10 items at $10 than 5 and $15

retailers in Australia markup extravagantly

examples abound

Kathmandu
recently purchase a casual jacket for $50 original price tag $300
purchased a Goretex jacket $230 around price $539

do you honestly think a pair of Bonds hipster trunks now made in China are worth $15-20 or cost anyware near that in materials and labour

please get real the sooner people stop accepting these price rip offs the sooner things will change

and yes when a recent price war raged on this site I compalined bitterly to the retailer how he could justify a price drop of sevaral hundred dollars in the space of a few months

furthermore the same supplier is lucky I haven't referred the matter too the ACCC as there is such a thing as false and misleading advertisement
what about recelling the product and taling the issue up with the manaufacturer

and as a lot of people know warranties are warranties and a lot are not worth the paper they are written on

Cases abound of blantant price rip offs everywhere in this country
and yet we continue to put up with it because of necessity and the lack of Govt intervention

[MrB (Simon)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

as someone with accounting background wouldn't it be more profitable to sell 10 items at $10 than 5 and $15

Yep, thats how WAL*MART put K-Mart out of business in the US.

[Peter Ward]

Seems I have a knack for inspiring spirited posts!

My point was however, more along the lines of: here is an *Aussie* Company selling their product *way cheaper* in the USA than here, and effectivey making sure this inflated (local) price would be paid by any ex-pats who dare to venture to foreign shores.....

Eat my shorts! comes to mind

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Hi Stephen

Lets take your post one at a time.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Sorry Claude, but this gets raised almost monthly here on IIS, seriously, monthly. Every man and his dog has a whine about local prices, then it all goes away.

In regards to your bulk Overseas IIS purchasing Group:

1. Who's going to arrange it? Take the money? make the orders? Pickup the goods?

I'm retired, with some research It might be a goer. Happy to look into it.

2. I certainly wouldn't be in it, because I always buy local to support the local dealers who offer support to local astronomers.

This is a classic. They have us so well trained. Local dealers are allowed to look at their bottom line but when we do its some how reprehensible. The issue is ARE local dealers supporting local astronmers with the prices in this country. In my view local dealers only deserve our loyality if they are loyal to us as well. It cuts both ways.

3. Does everyone keep forgetting abour warranty???? Meade and Celestron:

(a) DO NOT pay local dealers for warranty repairs so that aspect is factored into their prices.

There is no earthly reason why Meade and Celestron could not honour warranty when their scopes are repaired by a local authoried dealer (every other product on the planet does it). But of course if they did do that most people would buy direct from America rather then locally until the local prices fell.

(b) DO NOT have international warranties.

See above

4. There are other costs built into the local price besides just making a profit.

Yeah of course but it still does not explain the disparity in prices.

5. and shame on the local dealers for make a profit
Again, this is a classic. The remark is sooooo tellingly. Let me turn the remark on its head so you see what I mean; "And shame on you consumers for wanting to pay less". Its disturbing that your automatic reaction appears not to think in those terms.

With this country being 1/10th of the USA, one could easily say that their is at least 1/10th of the scopes sold, probably even less. If the local dealers didn't cover costs and make a profit, they probably wouldn't exist.

I'll go one further and say if they dont make a profit they wont (as opposed to your suggestion that they "probably wouldnt") exist. But thats the question isnt it. How much profit?

If people here are so annoyed at local prices, why don't they actually ring up the local dealers and complain? I bet no one does?

You lose the bet. I did. And none would explain to me how Celestron is cheaper in the US then Meade and much more expensive in Australia then Meade. Something I notice you do not address in your post.

Why did this thread degrad from Peter's original genuine thread, to another thread criticising local dealers and prices?

It is not uncommon for hobbiest sites like IIS to regularly speak of and thereby encourage lower prices so that the hobbie is accessible to as many as possibe. I find it disturbing that you would want to discourage this legitimate line of discussion esp when this hobbie is so horrendously expensive and a bit of relief for your fello astronmers might be warranted. Ohh wash my mouth out with soap. Consideration for the consumer over the local dealer. Heresy.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

The simple solution is to legislate international warranties on ALL products. No manufacturer would ignore the Australian market, even if we are small globally, we're far too big dollar wise to ignore, just to avoid this type of law. It wouldn't kill local business (vs overseas competitors), but it WOULD introduce competition, and it would reduce over inflated prices.

Let's be realistic here - say I buy a Canon 500mm f4 IS EF lens from the US - it's the same physical lens as one bought here, locally. They both come out of the same factory. If the product is identical, why price differentials (other than exchange rates of course)?

This small market argument is BS imho. It's an attempt at self justification for ridiculous price hikes. Again, as TrevorW has correctly (imho) pointed out, no government will touch it. Let me remind the government(s) that they are elected by the people, for the people. Busienss has no right to vote, and in reality, should NEVER (along with religion) have ANY say in politics. Sorry, but 2% of the population shouldn't be able to override the rights of the rest of the population under ANY circumstances in my eyes. When the general public starts getting off their behinds and starts actually standing up for their rights, and forcing governments to govern for "the people", then something will happen. And only then.

Remember the old saying:

apathy is on the rise: no on cares

It's a very true saying imho.

Dave

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

WOW, I love this thread!

Govenments may be elected by the people, but they work for big business, placating the populous as they go. Hence the prices, food standards, fuel standards, etc, discrepencies.

What a thread!

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Hi Claude, as has been pointed out in many threads over the years here on IIS, a large part of the problem is the markup on the authorised importers of the product, not necessarily the local retail telescope shop. The only way ythe consumer will truely understand what is really going on with Australian prices if an Importer and retailer opening their books to the consumer to explain the breakdown or the prices. I'm sure everyone here would be interested in that, but that's not going to happen. And again, as I tried to point out, this argument has been going on ad nausuem for years and nothing, nothing has ever changed. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Why not? considering there is this perceived crime against the consumer? Apathy, I guess? Perhaps the average consumer just couldn't be buggered? I know I couldn't be.

Again, as I said, this is a tired ol' argument but I look forward to it popping up in, ooooh, about 4 weeks.

[marki]

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

. And again, as I tried to point out, this argument has been going on ad nausuem for years and nothing, nothing has ever changed. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Why not? considering there is this perceived crime against the consumer? Apathy, I guess? Perhaps the average consumer just couldn't be buggered? I know I couldn't be.

Again, as I said, this is a tired ol' argument but I look forward to it popping up in, ooooh, about 4 weeks.

Stephen did you miss the recent ATS vs Andrews price war on GSO RC8 scopes????

Mark

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

WOW, I love this thread!

Govenments may be elected by the people, but they work for big business, placating the populous as they go. Hence the prices, food standards, fuel standards, etc, discrepencies.

What a thread!

I do not believe that this is wholly true. The populace is placated ONLY to the point where we don't overthrow the rich and powerful. In today's modern world, something like the French revolution would never happen, because those instigators would be labelled terrorists and hunted down (and then unfairly imprisoned on weak evidence [if any], and tortured as well - a point of example - Guantanamo Bay). There's the old story of the horse and the carrot...

I don't care one iota about business - I care about the rights of the MAJORITY of the population. Ever heard the saying "majority rules"? It seems that this doesn't apply to the rich and the powerful.

Call me anarchist if you will, but our current socio-economical setup is not sustainable. Out of chaos comes order, out of order comes chaos - that is the way of nature.

Dave

PS Actually, I'm probably classifiable as a extreme left, pagan, anarchist and chaos lover. It's why many of my beliefs are unpopular with the general populace, who really, are just sheep.

[DavidU (Dave)]

My products were quite a bit more expensive in the US.The lure is the big US boys more or less tell you what they will pay for items, however the US distributors will give you an order 10 to 20 times what an Au dealer will put on the table.
I will also would not sell to a US consumer and will always forward orders to the US distributor. If I did I would have all the goods returned or dumped on the US market.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by dpastern

...... I care about the rights of the MAJORITY of the population. Ever heard the saying "majority rules"? It seems that this doesn't apply to the rich and the powerful.....

Drifting even further from my original post.... deep down I suspect I am an anarchist, but........... I'd rather have a skilled surgeon perform a delicate op on yours truly, rather than a majority
vote: vis " hands up all those who think we should cut here"

Sadly the majority is often wrong.

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Hi Stephen,

I think its best to keep my reply brief so as not to offend but the bias in your reply against your fellow consumers in favour of the local retailers is very troubling. You say "this perceived crime against the consumer". Why are we just imagining it (consider A Celestron SkyScout in US $US178, in Australia $AUD500). And then apparently its really all our fault because as you say its “Apathy, I guess? Perhaps the average consumer just couldn't be buggered? I know I couldn't be”. And then you berate us for even bringing up the subject. I can certainly understand that you have had this discussion so often that it tires you. But why discourage us from trying to do something. It seems to me that even if we just talk about it, its bound to get back to all the players and maybe translate into a fairer deal for your fellow hobbyists.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Hi Claude, as has been pointed out in many threads over the years here on IIS, a large part of the problem is the markup on the authorised importers of the product, not necessarily the local retail telescope shop. The only way ythe consumer will truely understand what is really going on with Australian prices if an Importer and retailer opening their books to the consumer to explain the breakdown or the prices. I'm sure everyone here would be interested in that, but that's not going to happen. And again, as I tried to point out, this argument has been going on ad nausuem for years and nothing, nothing has ever changed. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Why not? considering there is this perceived crime against the consumer? Apathy, I guess? Perhaps the average consumer just couldn't be buggered? I know I couldn't be.

Again, as I said, this is a tired ol' argument but I look forward to it popping up in, ooooh, about 4 weeks.

[astroron (Ron)]

Hear! Hear!, I think tyhe thread has lost it's Way

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Hi Peter,

I figured out what the problem is with the pricing. The chip you want needs to be programmed for "Australian Conditions" because your Ferrari is driving on the wrong side of the road and upside down (we are Down Under) compared to the US, so they have to compensate the programming to make the car work at all!

The underlying truth to this may just be that they think you are loaded and you have more money than sense? Or is it because they are Americans who think that the sun sets when they pull up their own pants?

Cheers

Chris

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Drifting even further from my original post.... deep down I suspect I am an anarchist, but........... I'd rather have a skilled surgeon perform a delicate op on yours truly, rather than a majority
vote: vis " hands up all those who think we should cut here"

Sadly the majority is often wrong.

Why do you assume the majority is always wrong. I dont see why thats so. And whose saying that the skill of a surgeon should be overridden by majority rule. When the majoirty is properly advised by experts they are IMHO more capable of rendering the right decision then politicians who are advised by experts.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Back onto the car issue - Peter - is it possible to explore other countries other than the US? I really have to agree with you - the aussie company is being horrible in their comments. That's a complete disregard for the customer. Worse, it appears that they are going out of the way to make life difficult for you. It doesn't endear one to their business.

I honestly think that there should be some sort of body to deal with companies like this - and give them a good swift boot up the rear end (and a good 'ole clip in the earole!).

Dave

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

I believe there is something in the Trade Practices Act about the Aussie Cos behaviour. I would be ringing the ACCC to see if something could be done (of course the ACCC is just a PR joke but they might offer some advice. They have a hot line you can ring. At least you might scare the bejesus out of the Aussie Co.

Originally Posted by dpastern

Back onto the car issue - Peter - is it possible to explore other countries other than the US? I really have to agree with you - the aussie company is being horrible in their comments. That's a complete disregard for the customer. Worse, it appears that they are going out of the way to make life difficult for you. It doesn't endear one to their business.

I honestly think that there should be some sort of body to deal with companies like this - and give them a good swift boot up the rear end (and a good 'ole clip in the earole!).

Dave

[Spanrz (Brett)]

I remember reading something about chips or recoding the ECM/ECU of Ford Falcons. Something about the V8's in OZ and a USA made software/hardware.

There was a huge kerfuffle about 12 months ago with some people (dealers or associates of the performance software/hardware) in OZ were illegally coding cars and backdooring the system, getting extra cars done for free.
The software used to be locked to a licence, that the amount of cars you could code / tune per box. You then had to purchase another box or another license. I am not 100% sure how it went, but it was something like that.

Now from what I understand has happened, that the manufacturer of the tuning stuff has redone his work, and cut out any fiddling by unauthourized people, meaning you have to pay exorbanent cost per car tune.

Albeit if it's another company selling this concept, but it seems these people who sell this type of stuff, is using capitalism to their greatest strength and us consumers have to "Suck it up princess". That is, if you "really" want their product.

I just went through this with my wife over a portable fridge/freezer. (we had a massive debate in the store, hehe).
Cost is $1200, which I think is an absolute rort, but iceblocks aren't going to cut it for 6-7 days of camping (with meats)
Hence, I just had to put up and shut up, so I could achieve an outcome, that was the best for the both of us.

I so with you on this one Peter, but to me, it also comes to personal terms of justification "Do I really need it".

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Peter


If you type TRADE PRACTICES ACT 1974 - SECT 51AC in your browser you will find the prohibition on “Unconscionable conduct in business transactions”. I think if you showed the e-mails to the ACCC the Oz co may very well get a call from them. Also the provisions from s45 and beyond are relevant but their "possible" application requires closer study.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Why do you assume the majority is always wrong. I dont see why thats so. And whose saying that the skill of a surgeon should be overridden by majority rule. When the majoirty is properly advised by experts they are IMHO more capable of rendering the right decision then politicians who are advised by experts.

I digress even further. I said "often" not always.

On technical issues (that I have some knowledge of), I know that the pollies have been very poorly advised by so called "experts". eg aviation security "Arrest that pensioner! She has knitting needles and hand cream!!"
plus confiscating the Pilot's toothpaste (more than 100ml)...humm...if I continue this line of thought I'm only going to get cranky...