Recreational fishing is a cruel sport and should be banned

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Kunama

Whilst I don't wish to get into this debate, I found it interesting to note that whilst working as a Dive Control Specialist I took many keen fishermen for their first ocean dives and their response was to dive more and fish less as they found a new enjoyment in watching the fish in their natural habitat.

Swimming at a depth of 20-30 metres the fish schools accept the diver and often enclosed us within the school......

Most folk are busy, there is no time to stop and think.
I have enjoyed the absolute luxury of thinking.
If find so much pleasure in observing living things from microscopic up.
And when you observe things I think you gain compassion, well I have.
I am in the city at the moment but I have a small group of lizards who I like to observe.
They are wonderful, I know I should not but I feed them and it surprises me what they will eat when it comes from me.
I know many humans would be frightened by them and rather them dead but those folk miss so much I can only hold pity for that type of human.
I have a snake up home who has the run of the house but he is not much fun as he just hangs around and does not move much.
I have geckos as well they are very interesting and very fast and very territorial.
I even let the spiders live in peace.
I have a bat that hangs over the end of my bed and I have to put the mattress up because it leaves droppings, which I call its rent and put it in the compost.
Well its better than letting it upset me.
And one day I saw it there with its little baby that did it I cant sell that house its home for many.
It was so cute it near bought tears to my eyes.
There are mice but the snake takes care of them... Main thing is not to leave one single scrap of food anywhere so they have no reason to stay.
Mostly they are a little hopping mouse very cute.

So I can understand how observation will extend tolerance.

Alex

[sharpiel]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Most folk are busy, there is no time to stop and think.
I have enjoyed the absolute luxury of thinking.
If find so much pleasure in observing living things from microscopic up.
And when you observe things I think you gain compassion, well I have.
I am in the city at the moment but I have a small group of lizards who I like to observe.
They are wonderful, I know I should not but I feed them and it surprises me what they will eat when it comes from me.
I know many humans would be frightened by them and rather them dead but those folk miss so much I can only hold pity for that type of human.
I have a snake up home who has the run of the house but he is not much fun as he just hangs around and does not move much.
I have geckos as well they are very interesting and very fast and very territorial.
I even let the spiders live in peace.
I have a bat that hangs over the end of my bed and I have to put the mattress up because it leaves droppings, which I call its rent and put it in the compost.
Well its better than letting it upset me.
And one day I saw it there with its little baby that did it I cant sell that house its home for many.
It was so cute it near bought tears to my eyes.
There are mice but the snake takes care of them... Main thing is not to leave one single scrap of food anywhere so they have no reason to stay.
Mostly they are a little hopping mouse very cute.

So I can understand how observation will extend tolerance.

Alex

Alex you truly humble me.

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by sharpiel

In this thread those inconsistencies and illogicalities revolve around different standards of treatment towards animals. On one hand we protect our companion animals and at the same time we inflict needless suffering upon others. Sometimes for the joy of the action.

You view them as "inconsistencies and illogicalities" due to your own personal views which are not necessarily the same as others.

I in no way want to be "cruel" but I do catch and release fish. Do I think I'm being cruel? No. But if someone actually proved to me that fish do suffer in that situation (rather than simply exhibit a instinctual pain response), then I would seriously reconsider my participation. Hence my comments about plants. They do respond to damage, but frankly don't experience pain. But where is the point where the characteristics of the organism allow it to experience pain, and then, more importantly (in my mind), actually "suffer"?

Originally Posted by Nath2099

It's called reductio ad absurdium. Plants don't have a brain to feel pain. I'll refer you back to post 17 who says it much better than I ever could.

EDIT: Post 17 was actually by yourself, so I have no idea why you felt the need to ask this question.

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. Find a point where we can all agree and work from there. No need to resort to latin

[dimithri86 (Dimithri)]

Im also conflicted between liking meat and not being happy with killing animals for food, when we have so many other options. As a temporary solution solution I've reduced my consumption of meat. I suspect we probably eat a lot more meat than in good for us, and we could probably benefit from eating less, and more veggies. 2 meat days and 1 fish day, is quite easy for me to do, without feeling like I am giving up something. If I get to 1 meat day and 1 fish day a week, I'll be happy, its a good balance between looking after nature, and still fulfilling out natural instincts to eat meat.

On a side note, for some reason I am particularly against seafood like lobster and crab. When I was a kid my parents once tried to get me to eat me, and I refused, and I have never eaten it. For me its the form it comes in, like i can stomach a fillet of fish, but having the whole fish or lobster in front of me really puts me off. I was particularly put of yesterday when I saw a cooking show about cooking lobster, and how you should keep it alive till you get it home and put in the freezer to put it to "sleep".

[clive milne]

Incidentally... on somewhat of a tangent.

For anyone concerned with the welfare of creatures that dwell in wild marine environments... One of the single biggest things you can do to help preserve them is to stop eating beef, or rather become vegetarian... it's a climate change thing, of course.

[Nath2099]

Originally Posted by bugeater

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. Find a point where we can all agree and work from there. No need to resort to latin

I think having a nervous system would be a good minimum.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Incidentally... on somewhat of a tangent.

For anyone concerned with the welfare of creatures that dwell in wild marine environments... One of the single biggest things you can do to help preserve them is to stop eating beef, or rather become vegetarian... it's a climate change thing, of course.

Embracing cannibalism is our only hope really.

Alex

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Embracing cannibalism is our only hope really.

Alex

What is required is a revolution in agriculture, away from the energy / fertiliser / transport / poison dependent and profit driven monoculture towards closed loop, nutrient recycling, zero impact and locally grown foods.
And that is going to require a seismic cultural shift... globally.
It will require a change in attitude towards insects and detritivores. Even if we are not overly wrapped in the idea of eating them, they simply must become part of the food chain, even if it is just to be used as a way of turning vegetable waste waste in to protein (fish food)., and then on through the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle - nutrients back to the plants (Aquaponics, basically)

I expect that the Black soldier fly (aka: the compost piranha) and Gammarus (micro shrimp) will feature big in the future.

[rrussell1962]

A lot of very interesting posts in this thread. To follow on from Clive's point about not eating Beef, it is slightly absurd that globally around a third of the commercial fish catch is used to manufacture fish meal for animal feed.

[dimithri86 (Dimithri)]

And the situation will get worse, as India's and China's growing middle class can afford more meat.

Thought on artificial meat?

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

So where do I fit in? I enjoy fishing to eat the fish I catch, (im a member of PETA, People Eating Tasty Animals).

But in order to get the fish that I want to eat, I have to throw quite a few back. Do I just stop after the first undersized fish I reel in?

I don't like unnecessary cruelty try to anything.

[deanm (Dean)]

When I was a kid, I asked my father if catching fish on a hook hurt them.

He reassured me that they have no feeling around their mouths.

It was only as an adult biologist that I understood that this is nonsense & the mouth parts of fish are the most sensitive part of their anatomy - for feeding.

I've never fished since that realisation.

Dean

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Incidentally... on somewhat of a tangent.

For anyone concerned with the welfare of creatures that dwell in wild marine environments... One of the single biggest things you can do to help preserve them is to stop eating beef, or rather become vegetarian... it's a climate change thing, of course.

The best thing for the Australian environment would be if far fewer people ate pork or beef, and switched to rabbit and venison that they hunted themselves. Both those animals are in plague proportions, and doing plenty of damage.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by clive milne

What is required is a revolution in agriculture, away from the energy / fertiliser / transport / poison dependent and profit driven monoculture towards closed loop, nutrient recycling, zero impact and locally grown foods.
And that is going to require a seismic cultural shift... globally.
It will require a change in attitude towards insects and detritivores. Even if we are not overly wrapped in the idea of eating them, they simply must become part of the food chain, even if it is just to be used as a way of turning vegetable waste waste in to protein (fish food)., and then on through the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle - nutrients back to the plants (Aquaponics, basically)

I expect that the Black soldier fly (aka: the compost piranha) and Gammarus (micro shrimp) will feature big in the future.

So you agree we must embrace cannibalism.

Dont you love it when a thread goes off the rails smashing thru the toes as if they are only there to mark the accident... but seeing we are on the otherside of the fence....

We know what is wrong, we know why it is wrong, we know how to fix it but nothing will happen other than we pay more for coal/electricity to run airconditioners to cool our big houses with trendy dark roofing.

Sure we are getting alternative power but as good as it is money is made from it and if not it would not happen I suspect.

I mean solar panels and no one knows what a battery bank is must tell us something.

I have always believed global warming has been seized upon by special interest groups to sell their product.. NP in particular. I mean you have deep green hippies saying NP is the answer. The answer is use less power firstly, curb rampant childish greed second.

I cant believe we tolerate folk developing a 400 klm car or any car that can travel faster than say 120 klms... And food really its not about nourishment it is about the pleasure of taste and sheer gluttony.

Too many humans is the problem, moreover to many greedy humans.

And clothes, why did you get me started... I go to the shopping center and walk thru what seems acres of clothes in Big W, K mart, Target and I know there are many other big stores but outside every second shop is a clothing shop.

Heck in Hornsby alone you would think that center supplied the whole of Australia.. I spend $30 on a new outfit every year wheter I need them or not $8 for pants $5 for t shirt maybe $12 to $20 for a jacket. I don't get cold but I dont dress to impress...

But you wont change a thing.. Will never happen.

Then the food, I look at the trolleys at the super market and quickly understand why the pusher can barely squeeze thru the otherwise roomy exit shute.

Global warming bring it on... Something comes to mind reap what you sow...

Anyways back on track.

The animals, some will survive us, our society its dependence upon tight shedules and demands of return on captital will see it crumble if trucks are off the road for a week, and if you take the time to think what can go wrong real fast you will never worry about climate change.

We cant stop drugs, we cant stop domestic violence we can't stop the various wars yet somehow we can stop the planet hotting up... No I really dont think so.

It should not be how to stop it all effort must go as to how humans s will survive in the new environment.. Like when the big rock hit the smart animals were under ground...

Alex

[MortonH]

I don't like hunting and I despise intentional cruelty to animals but in the big picture any damage or suffering caused by recreational fishing/hunting is insignificant compared to mankind's everyday impact on the environment.

Think about where you are right now while reading this. Whether you're in a building, outside on the street or in a vehicle, the ground underneath you used to be covered with trees and plants and was teeming with life. How many billions of organisms were destroyed while the road was laid or your house was built? And what happened to the creatures that weren't destroyed? Were they relocated to a nice new home? Of course not, they were simply forced to fend for themselves elsewhere. And as we know from many places around the planet, destruction of habitat leads to some animals starving to death and possibly becoming extinct.

I understand why some people don't like fishing or hunting and I generally agree with them but, if you pardon the pun, there are bigger fish to fry.

[raymo]

I agree with you about hunting being pretty insignificant in the scheme of things, but around the world fishing is more popular than any other form of recreation, resulting in millions of fish being in severe pain at any one
moment in time, and to cap it off, many are discarded because of being
an inedible species. Then you have the *-&%2s that cut off shark fins and
toss the sharks back into the ocean to die, and the Japanese who
slaughter whales for "scientific purposes". IMHO humanity is just about
the worst calamity to ever befall this planet, with the possible exception of the occasional asteroid impact a while ago.
raymo

[75BC (Brendon)]

Alex, Morton and Raymo have touched on something I have quite a strong opinion on, for the planets sake alone. I usually keep it to myself because not a lot of people I talk to would agree.

I believe that the level of human population is the biggest threat to all living things future survival. I saw a program on TV not long ago of a meeting between Barack Obama and Sir David Attenborough. It was the first time I had heard a world leader mention the threat of an over populated planet and how we can address it.

I did hear a scientist say something once that I found quite humorous and it was that the only thing on this planet in plague proportions is humans.

[MortonH]

Unfortunately human competition for natural resources will likely make things worse instead of better.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by 75BC

....
I believe that the level of human population is the biggest threat to all living things future survival....

I agree.
If things go on the way they at the moment, in couple of hundreds of years each human will have only 0.5 m^2 of space available, including continents and ocean floor.
The total collapse of civilization will happen much earlier.
And the western world was criticizing Chinese one-child policy...

[75BC (Brendon)]

We’ve had a number of shark attacks in WA in recent years and I have conflicting emotions over what should be done about it.

On the one hand I can fully understand peoples wanting sharks to be hunted / culled, especially friends and family of attack victims and the victims themselves. I enjoy taking a dip in the ocean but now worry about sharks.

But on the other hand, even when there is an attack I would think that the shark responsible has not done it just for recreation.

Therefore I usually lean more to the side of the shark.