Recreational fishing is a cruel sport and should be banned

[sharpiel]

I refer you to this thread and invite your comments.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...87#post1281387

My point is that fishing and hunting require the destruction of a life which is very precious to the entity that loses it and destroys the families of the entity who remain behind.

We abhore war for the loss of human life and the families bereft and left behind by this senseless destruction. And yet it's ok when we do the same to other life forms for our own entertainment. Are we so arrogant that we think our life is more precious than any other?

Perhaps the hunters and those who fish for the sole purpose of recreation...not because they are starving and need to hunt/fish to survive, can explain what pleasure it is they gain from the taking of another entity's life and why they think this is any different to the cruelty that's perpetrated upon other animals such as cats and dogs which society says is illegal.

Maybe John Bambury could elucidate?

[xelasnave]

I suspect fishing, hunting and indeed fighting are "hard wired" (whatever that means) into our make up.
I think about humans like I think about animals in so far as we, they act as they have acted for thousands of years.

Say a dog who has come from generations of not hunting but prior to that his ancestors may have been hunters or asisted in the hunt for thousands of years, generation after generation, and so dont be surprised if that modern dog can not help himself and chases the neighbours cooks.

And as humans we tend to think we are perhaps more sophisticated than we actually are...

Fight or flight is not something that we learnt by watching DrPhil... No it has been sown into who we are from ancestors we no longer can relate to.

Many humans like to fish, hunt and even punch anothers face.

And I suggest those things are close to being instinctual. Does not make these things right but it allows one to understand why we hunt and dont wear the skin why we fish when we can go to the shop or fight when we can call the police.

And one can ask what sence is there in any of these things and even those who may fish hunt or fight can not answer why because these desires go beyond our time and are anchored in an era we no longer understand.

I do think so many things are cruel and as our species moves forward more folk will recognise the cruelty their most recent ancestors could not.
I think horse racing and dog racing is cruel for example.
Battery hens, battery pigs, feed lots to grow beef... No one thinks of another human suffering past a casual moment let alone how so many animals are treated so very very badly.

As to fishing I think catch and release is strange... on the one hand our fisherman wants to fish and yet on the other he is starting to recognise the virtue of not killing the fish.

Personally I think if you catch it, kill it and eat it cause thats what our ancestors did.

I can absolutely relate to how you feel Les and I practise kindness even to things that another will swat.

I catch a mosquito and let it outside, or if I find an insect trapped some way I give it and escape route.

And I can accept folk will think I am crazy but that never has worried me but hopefully I may influence another to be kind. If not I have at least been kind to many creatures and I dont careif they dont understand... but strangely I think they do.


All I can say Les is you are a very good man and I know how seeing cruelty really hurts you inside.

There is little I can say other than as far as you can care for any creature that you can help and be content that you at least have done your best.

Best wishes
Alex

[clive milne]

It's a while ago now, but once upon a time I put a pond in my backyard and stocked it with koi and goldfish. Eventually, it became its own little self sustaining eco-system (more or less) I fed them occasionally, but not that often. Even so, in my experience they were as personable as any domestic animal to be found in western society. They could easily identify me, or to be more precise, distinguish me from other people by sight. When I went wading in the pond to do the occasional bit of maintenance, they would come up and say hello in their own way and basically just hang out...quite happy to receive a pat or two - and they weren't there expecting to be fed.
They had their own little social structure as far as I could tell and personalities that most people wouldn't attribute to such creatures.

It struck me that if I was ever going to raise fish as a food source, the most difficult thing would be to take a knife to one of your mates, so to speak.

Having moved on, it's the only thing about that house that I miss.

Point being, fish are a whole lot smarter and more socially aware than most people give them credit for and deserve to be shown some basic degree of respect in my humble opinion.

2c

[leon]

Everyone has the right to put their point forward and i respect that, but really, Alex, letting mozzies and insects go, seems a bit much

I think this will be an interesting thread.

Leon

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by leon

Everyone has the right to put their point forward and i respect that, but really, Alex, letting mozzies and insects go, seems a bit much

I think this will be an interesting thread.

Leon

It seems strange but it surprising how nice it feels to know you can do it.

I like to think its the sort of mercy an ideal God may have or should have.
To think you can kill something with out a thought and yet to show it compassion is neat.

Before you judge me or write off my action as madness just try it once.
You dont have to judge the insect as good or bad but with out judging it simply help it.

I bet if you do it just once you will be hooked because you will have done something another human could not do. You dont have to get on a hobby horse and try and convert people to your way just do it for the helpless little crearure give it a little more time on Earth, it has so little and you can give it so much.

Alex

[leon]

Alex trust me mate i am not judging you or anyone for that matter, and as said i respect what you any others feel for other living creatures.

I might just leave it at that.

Leon

[clive milne]

Alex, my code is somewhat different.

Live and let live... for those creatures that don't put me on their menu.

Mosquitoes, ticks, etc) I terminate with prejudice.

[glend (Glen)]

I have owned several boats over several decades, and fished from them, and particiated in the old Trailerboat Fishing Tournament at Port Stephens (NSW). My son, his cousin, and other members of my family saw it as a recreational pursuit. However, I never really enjoyed the fishing aspect, loved messing about in boats, but fishing was just an excuse to be out on the boat for me. These days, no more boats (a hole in the water that we pour money into), and no fishing, even though I can walk down to the lake to do so. I usually made people with me, release the fish, and I recall one employee of mine really got the S**ts because I made him release an undersized Kingfish which he wanted to take home. Many people just don't care about the fish stocks and are prepared to take anything they can get their hands on. I was fishing near Tom Ugly's Bridge once and watched three guys (I won't mention their culture) who were putting little Bream in a bucket to take home. I yelled at them about size limits and got a rude gesture in return. No Fisheries Officers to be seen. I have seen people fishing inside of designated Marine Parks like the one at Nelson Bay (Little Beach) and no consequences.
On the basis of my experiences I believe recreational fishing should be banned because it cannot be policed effectively and you can't trust people to do the right thing. I realise there is a big industry built around recreational fishing, from boats to rods and reels, to bait, etc. and this is worth millions of dollars but its the same as indecriminate hunting.
By all means allow people to mess about in boats and enjoy the great waters around Australia but shut down recreational fishing asap.

Let fish stocks recover through a decade long ban and then reassess, but frankly, if you know anything about fishing, the cost of getting the fish (the boat, the gear, the fuel, the bait, the time, etc) is far in excess of the cost of buying fish from the Markets. It's not a sport, ban it.

[Nath2099]

Fishing doesn't always require the death of the fish. Catch, tag, and release is an important scientific endeavor. It imagine it's quite stressful for the fish, but better that than dead.

Mozzies die in my house, they carry disease. But spiders, and insects who are not mozzies I'll generally rescue. I even avoid treading on ants!

Shooting animals for 'sport' is absolutely horrific and I'll never understand it. But if you plan on eating them, then I'm ok with it so long as it's not cruel (humans need protein). Filling a duck full of birdshot for instance... cruel and gross.

Mice and rats I'll also get rid of, for the same reason, they carry disease.

[Nath2099]

Originally Posted by glend

I have owned several boats over several decades, and fished from them, and particiated in the old Trailerboat Fishing Tournament at Port Stephens (NSW). My son, his cousin, and other members of my family saw it as a recreational pursuit. However, I never really enjoyed the fishing aspect, loved messing about in boats, but fishing was just an excuse to be out on the boat for me. These days, no more boats (a hole in the water that we pour money into), and no fishing, even though I can walk down to the lake to do so. I usually made people with me, release the fish, and I recall one employee of mine really got the S**ts because I made him release an undersized Kingfish which he wanted to take home. Many people just don't care about the fish stocks and are prepared to take anything they can get their hands on. I was fishing near Tom Ugly's Bridge once and watched three guys (I won't mention their culture) who were putting little Bream in a bucket to take home. I yelled at them about size limits and got a rude gesture in return. No Fisheries Officers to be seen. I have seen people fishing inside of designated Marine Parks like the one at Nelson Bay (Little Beach) and no consequences.
On the basis of my experiences I believe recreational fishing should be banned because it cannot be policed effectively and you can't trust people to do the right thing. I realise there is a big industry built around recreational fishing, from boats to rods and reels, to bait, etc. and this is worth millions of dollars but its the same as indecriminate hunting.
By all means allow people to mess about in boats and enjoy the great waters around Australia but shut down recreational fishing asap.

Let fish stocks recover through a decade long ban and then reassess, but frankly, if you know anything about fishing, the cost of getting the fish (the boat, the gear, the fuel, the bait, the time, etc) is far in excess of the cost of buying fish from the Markets. It's not a sport, ban it.

Surely industrial fishing causes much more damage than recreational fishing?

[blindman]

Have a look at this and then ask again.
Hunting is a normal way to get "normal" meat and animals live in natural environment.
http://www.animalsaustralia.org/feat...omach-turn.php

[raymo]

Most reef fish brought up from a significant depth quickly, die, period.
Many game fish die from utter exhaustion after long fights. Fish for food by all means, it is no more cruel than the horrific ways that many creatures kill each other; nature at its worst; but to hunt and kill any creature for
recreation [read fun] is, I agree, horrific.
raymo

[Nath2099]

Fair point. I must admit, my fishing expeditions are more about drinking than fishing. From the banks of a river. If I do happen to actually catch something, I can't bring myself to put a knife through it's head. I let them go.

[xelasnave]

I have been reading that fish do not feel pain and wonder how that could be.
If they feel no pain how do they protect themselves, I mean you would think that you would need pain to alert you to something going wrong if you see what I mean.

ALEX

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by sharpiel

require the destruction of a life which is very precious to the entity that loses it

Does this apply to plants too? They respond to noxious stimuli. You destroy their life when you kill and eat them. Where is the line drawn?

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I have been reading that fish do not feel pain and wonder how that could be.

Like so...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_xHSooIafs

or:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_shrimp

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I have been reading that fish do not feel pain and wonder how that could be.
If they feel no pain how do they protect themselves, I mean you would think that you would need pain to alert you to something going wrong if you see what I mean.

ALEX

There is a difference between an instinctual response (think how your hand automatically pulls back from a heat source if you touch it) versus a conscious pain response, which in humans happens after the initial instinctual response and occurs in parts of the brain that some animals don't even have. "Pain" in its broadest definition is pretty essential for life as it simply means moving away from or avoiding noxious stimuli. Doesn't mean the organism "suffers" though. As an example, look up people with "congenital analgesia". They don't feel physical pain and typically don't live very long as a result.

[sharpiel]

My partner and I run a self funded animal refuge and sanctuary. Some of you have been here and seen our work. I can tell you from personal experience that all animals feel pain and suffer.

What I have found in my many years dealing with both humans and non humans is that humans link vocal outcry directly to pain and suffering. Because insects, worms etc and FISH don't vocalise pain, we can compartmentalise their pain and reassure ourselves that they aren't suffering. I use the cat analogy again: if a person hooked a cat by the mouth and dragged it down the road behind them there would be a public outcry of animal cruelty. The cat would be making sounds of incredible pain and that would trigger an emotional response from most people. Other live entities that don't vocalise their pain don't trigger an emotional response the same way. It's easier to say then that they don't suffer. So acts of cruelty against them aren't seen as cruel. They don't communicate their pain and suffering to us. Ergo they don't feel any.

I have been heartened by the positive responses of those who have interacted with non human life here and who have recognised that those lives have personalities of their own. Clive tells a compelling story of intelligence and interaction. He responded. As we all would given the chance. Unfortunately few of us take the chance to interact with other lives beyond the recognised companion animals; cats, dogs, rabbits etc. Why do people think that treating cats and dogs cruelly is unacceptable, yet treating other animals the same way is acceptable. This is illogical and inconsistent.

I consider my own life incredibly important. I would like to think that the day our alien overlords arrive they would treat my life as preciously as I feel it is. Because I consider my life precious I know all other beings deserve the right to be treated with the same respect I expect to be treated with. This is logical and consistent.

When I started this thread I expected be trolled, abused, cast out, isolated and alienated. Thank you for those who have the enlightenment to realise that all life is important, especially to the entity living it, regardless of its form. If it's not threatening me I believe in letting it get on with its life as I do. If it's in distress I help it. I would never deliberately destroy it.

When you strip away everything else, our life is all we have left. If our lives are taken away our families remain behind desolate. And so it is for every other living thing. Why take from it all it has especially for your own joy and pleasure? And animals form communities as well. They mourn the loss of their partners in their own ways. Some creatures mate for life. They feel the distress of bereavement and loneliness as we do. We may have opposable thumbs and the abilities to manipulate tools to advance our civilisation but we are not more evolved socially that many other of the creatures of this earth.

If you did this to humans you'd be branded a monster and psychotic. Well I don't believe we are any better than the fish or the moths or the birds or the worms. Why destroy them for your joy? I'm not a Christian pushing God on anyone. But I do cherish the sanctity of life. If there is a god then God help us if we ever make it to the stars. We are likely to destroy everything in our path.

As a final note (in this post anyway) I linked in my OP here the thread from which this one derived, wherein I spoke up for the fish and wherein John Bambury abused me for my views. All posts negative to that thread have now been deleted by the moderators. It's a shame that freedom of opinion is sometimes stifled when it doesn't agree with the views of the majority.

I've taken a compete copy of this thread tho. If it's also deleted I'll be more than happy to provide a copy to everybody.

[casstony]

Part of our cruder behaviour is explained by the fact that we're not far removed from the other animals - it takes a bit of effort and education for us to be better beings.

For example, with a little introspection perhaps big game hunters could be just as satisfied hunting with a camera.

[alocky (Andrew lockwood)]

Good for you that you practise what you preach - and obviously you're vegans as well. That's fine, and it's your choice. I don't share your views, I eat meat because I enjoy it, and I will hunt game for my own table. I don't enjoy killing, but I know that a quick clean kill in the bush is a far better end to a happier existence than being a terrified cow dragged into an abattoir and killed. But I also eat meat from the supermarket, so I'm not going to say that's bad either.
I do share your views on killing for the sake of it, but these behaviors usually stem from ignorance, culture, or youth. It is other people's right to have different views, so rather than ban these activities, you should continue your fine example, and do your best to educate the 'other' people, but you do not have a right to force your beliefs on them.