binocular bollocks

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Forget about telescopes, start out with binoculars. --- Thats what all telescope buying guides I've read say.

I believe this advice is totally inappropriate for people who live in or near big cities or in large towns. You will not see anything really interesting with binoculars (nothing to hook you anyway) unless you go to a dark sky site. A telescope on the other hand will give you close-up views of the gas giants that will impress every newcomer, and hook some, even in the most light polluted areas.

When it comes to going to a dark sky site, one needs to dedicate time, effort, petrol, funds... One is not gonna do this for a pair of binoculars. But having a telescope, even just a smallish one, is enough of an excuse to spend a night with the heavens away from home.

With the price of decent small (3--6", and some not so small) reflectors having come down a lot in recent years, anyone who is seriously looking to buy a telescope should be told to go get one. Binos are a nice accessory but they're no substitute, especially in light polluted areas.

Is it time to update buyers' guides? What do you all think??

[RAJAH235]

Janos, The basic thing that we AA's should tell people starting out or have kids who show an interest and who attend meetings/open nights etc, is NOT to buy the TOY t'scopes that are readily avail. at camera stores and the like. A decent pair of 7 x 50's and a planisphere are ALL that are required to start. If a TOY t'scope is bought and interest is lost because of lousy images, sloppy mount, not focusing, tracking etc, there goes the ball game. (money included).
We W.A.A.C.ers and most AA's already take this view and invite them along to our/their observing nights, just to show what is avail. Any questions can be answered re; costs, etc. etc. Which buyer's guide/s are you referring to? Can you post quotes?
I totally agree with what has been said before re; the pictures on the t'scope boxes being overly exaggerated. This is supposed to induce an interest? That is where the problem lies!
Just the facts m'am!

[rmcpb (Rob)]

I'm not sure the advice is to forget a scope but rather to spend some time learning the sky beforehand and, of course, to learn the sky a set of binocs and a planishpere is all you need to start. A scope is the next step and hopefully by this time the person has had some time to take a deep breath and consider their options before buying.

Just my two bobs worth

[iceman (Mike)]

I think that the "buy binoculars first" line really comes from the "don't buy a cheap telescope" line.

Someone that is already interest in astronomy and stargazing might be able to make acceptable use out of a 60mm ebay refractor (hi ving ) despite its shortcomings (wobbly mount, terrible optics, terrible eyepieces). But it's not true to say that an inexperienced newbie will find the same challenge enjoyable, and they may give up the hobby in frustration because of those problems and what they were led to believe by the pictures on the box (525x magnification!!).

So that's why we say to people "don't buy a cheap telescope", and instead recommend something like a 6" or 8" dob for newbies. But obviously that costs more and might be out of the budget to start with. Plus, the average newbie might not even know if astronomy is a hobby they want to invest that sort of money in. $500 can be a large investment for someone who it turns out hates the cold, the mozzies, the challenge of finding things, all there is to learn. So the scope sits in the garage/cupboard, never to come out again.

That's why it's common to recommend a pair of binoculars first. Obviously the larger aperture the better, but even a pair of $30 10x25's can see Jupiter's moons, star clusters and bright nebulas. A pair of 7x50's or 10x50's will be even better, just scanning through the milky way is enjoyable seeing faint fuzzies and star clusters and bright star fields popping out at you.
And combined with a $20 planisphere, it's the best way to learn the night sky and figure out if astronomy is a hobby you want to pursue further before outlaying the money needed for a decent telescope.

I was given the same advice, because I was looking for a cheap telescope too. But I'm glad I took that advice.. I got a pair of 11x70 binoculars and used them for 6 months before saving up enough for a (and deciding on which) telescope. I saw comets, clusters, nebula, the moon, Jupiters moons, Saturns shape, etc, and it was a great introduction into the hobby.

Even in quite light polluted areas i think binoculars will still be better than naked eye. Obviously they're great in dark skies, but i'm still amazed by what you can see in binoculars compared to naked eye.

While we might be able to show someone Saturn in a good 8 or 10" well collimated scope with a reasonably good eyepiece and blow them away, the same can't be said for a cheap refractor and one of those 4mm eyepieces they supply. Saturn will be a fuzzy white blob with handles, I don't think that's going to blow anyone away, especially when they try to align on something with those shaky alt/az tripods while it wobbles in the wind.

With the price of good quality telescopes (like the 8" GSO dob) coming down lately, and the gap between decent binoculars and a decent scope closing, the advice may not be as relevant as it was a year or 2 ago, but I still think it's relevant for someone who isn't yet sure if they have an interest in astronomy.

Anyway just my 2c.. Good discussion!

[ving (David)]

hi back ice!

I thinkthe idea behind saying "get some decent binos first" is to get prople to learn thier way around the sky...
one would assume that at this stage the person would already have some interest...

but I do disagree with that...

my ebay telescope cost my about $80. the mount needed constant attention and it wasnt the easiest to adjust, it came with the old 1" EP, and I had to weigh the tripod down with a house brick to help stablize things.... but for some reason i must have been lucky cause the optics were actually ok. I could see all sorts of DSOs, banding on jupiter, the cassini division and titan on saturn. I could take afocal picture thru it too which amazed me.

some of my 60mm pics:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v46/ving68/60mm/
these were taken only a week into my new hobby.... "what if i aim my camera down the lens...."

but like i said, i must have got lucky with the optics in mine.
I think it was a fine way to start
If I had just bought binos I prolly wouldnt be here now.

[seeker372011 (Narayan)]

A guy at work bought the 3 inch reflector from Aldi . He knew nothing about astronomy and was even surprised that the image is inverted when he tried to align his finderscope..was about to return the scope as faulty.

Two weeks on he has seen nothing and has no idea how to run his scope-if he had a pair of binos and a star map or a decent beginners book he could have been away and running.

IMHO Binos are easier to use..objects are easier to find , its more intuitive than pushing a dob around, and far easier than mastering the movements in spherical coordinates of a GEM

The set up time is non existent-you can use them for 15 minutes when there is a sucker hole amidst the clouds

some objects arguably actually look better in binos-eg the five of diamonds in Carina or even the Pleides or the Magellqanic Clouds

you will always use a bino even when you have a scope-Maybe GOTO users who dont need to know the sky at all have little use for binos but for everyone else binos are as essential as a finderscope. Plus two eyes are sometimes better than one..
some nights I cant be bothered carrying all the gear out so its easy to grab a star map and my 20 x80s and head out to the backyard.


I used a 7 x50 binos for over a year-wish I had started with a 10 x50 but that is beside the point.

I still think its reasonable advice to start with binos but believe the starter should be 10 x 50s not 7 x50s..

Look if you are going to be turned away by not seeing nebulae in colour you may as well be left with a piece of equipment that you can use at the cricket-or whale or bird (of all types) watching if you are into that sort of thing

[gaa_ian (Ian)]

I would have to agree with the Binos option (10x50 adults & perhaps 8x40 for young kids) for the "Ive always been interested in astronomy" casually interested "what should I buy" enquiry
However, this needs to be matched with the level of interest shown.
If someone has come to a couple of viewing nights & is keen as mustard + has the $, I say go for the biggest appeture dob you are prepared to lug around.
A small high quality travel scope may suit others with a more mobile lifestyle.
different Horses for different courses ......
Ving you are obviously very persistant ...a rare quality !

[ving (David)]

that I am... I made it a mission at one stage of my 60mm life to hunt the faintest things i could

and believe it or not, one time with what i now assume was exceptional viewing i saw proxima... I double and tripple chacked that one as I didnt expect to be able to see it at all

[silvinator]

I also have to disagree with you on this janos. I own a pair of 7x50 bino's and I live under light polluted skies. I love taking my bino's out on a clear night and going to the balcony and just sweeping the skies. It's much better than trying to lug out my huge scope and setup in what limited space I have in my current home. I don't think you need a dark site to gain satisfaction from a casual sweep either.

I've found many objects with my bino's which help me to know where to look with my scope the next time around. In fact, I first found the 47tuc globular with my bino's and I was stoked!

Sometimes, the bino's offer a better wider field of view of larger objects like the pleiades. The rich field of stars in the carinae region are just amazing to scan with the bino's as well.
As others have said, binoculars offer a great way for beginners to learn the night sky - all you do is point the bino's upwards and there you have it, you're an amateur astronomer! Whereas with a telescope, there are many setup issues and more frustrations to be had for someone just starting out.

Bino's could never be a substitute for a telescope. But I believe they help to sustain an interest in this hobby. It is an invaluable accessory for both beginners and experienced observers alike.
I've recommended bino's to beginners many a time, but it is really a matter of choice - some people just want to jump right into the deep end, some are happy to just get their feet wet. Bino's will certainly satisfy the latter.

[RAJAH235]

Hi all, May I continue this by adding, last week, a lady rang me saying that her hubby had just purchsed a t'scope from Aldi????, for, wait for it, $89. Could I please help them set it up, as they could only see a small black circle inside a white one. (or something like that). I arranged to go later that week during daylight hours, to help out.
When I arrived, I saw an *OPTUS* brand 700mm x 76mm reflector with one of those alt/az mounts with a single screw/rod for slow motion control, on a wobbly tripod. I spent the next 5 1/2 hours there, adjusting the secondary, primary, finder,etc etc etc. The mount is so cheaply made that it would'nt even lock.(can be fixed). After all my work,(with tea breaks + biccys and discussions on all subjects), we took it outside to collimate and found that the finder needed packing under the front etc etc. I could not show them anything because of the cloudy conditions, but they were happy just to see the top of the telegraph pole 500mtrs away, and the birds sitting on it, albeit at the wrong angle!
I'd taken some books and a planisphere to show them how to navigate/orientate themselves around. They even bought a copy of 2005 off me.
They were very happy with my efforts, time and the information that I gave.
This couple are aged in their mid to late 60's, and were just curious to have a look at the stars and moon and the birds.
They are in a different situation compared to the young children that often attend our meeting/ob nights.If this couple find that it's not for them, then not much harm done, BUT as I said before, if the kids are disillusioned and frustrated by a cheap t'scope, then you will probably never see them again.
ps. They rang on Mon. night, asking, where was Jupiter and Saturn, as their daughter had arrived and wanted to see them.
Just the facts m'am!
pps. This happens quite frequently.
ppps.Must apologise to seeker for not seeing his ref. to the 75mm.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

You all raise Interesting points. I guess it's really an individual thing. I had a pair of cheap 10x50 binos for years, and used to look at the stars with them and was impressed with what I could see, but it was never gonna get me into astronomy. The binos were not comfortable though. They were misaligned so the stereo view was very straining on the eyes. I pulled it apart to see if I could fix it and that was the end of it. Also, 10x50 is too much for me, I can't hold it steady enough. I've got a 2nd hand 7x50 now and it's much better.

What got me seriously interested in amateur astronomy was a cheap 4.5" reflector, and the sight of Saturn through it.

Ving, I'm still considering grabbing the 60mm refractor from Dick Smith, purely out of curiosity.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Ken, you must have grown up under some decent skies. Most of the developed (and developing) world is not so lucky.

Watch yourself with that bazooka! You don't want ASIO coming after you! When I got the 4.5" people were telling me to make sure the cops don't see me pointing it at anything! Now they've seen the 8" Dob and they all think the 4.5" looks puny!

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

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[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum, being told about it the other day by a friend from another online group.
I use a pair of 10x50 binoculars, mounted on a good tripod, and a department store 60mm refractor for my observing.
A pair of binos is the perfect companion for any astronomer. You get the best views of the larger open clusters, and I use them for star hopping to an object before viewing.
If I'm going away for a few days, the binos are the first things to be packed.
For those that are interested, you can download an observing list for binoculars. From the Astronomical Leagues Southern Sky Binocular Club, they have compiled a list of 73 objects that can be found using a pair of 7x50 binos.
It is also an ideal list for those with little scopes like mine.
Jeanette

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Also on the topic of dept. store refractors.
I bought our scope off Ebay before christmas, for the kids. Trying to be a good parent, I thought it best if I learn't how to use the thing so I can teach them. It got me so hooked! It has opened my eyes to the beauty and depth of our night skys.
The best moments I have had with my little scope, was when I first observed the Sombrero Galaxy a couple of weeks ago, and the other night when I caught sight of Rhea. I didnt think that a $100 scope could do it.
Jeanette

[gaa_ian (Ian)]

Good on you Jeanette &
My first experience was with a Dept store "Tasco" back in the 70's when I was a kid
Probably got me started being interested in the night sky.
Wait till you get a peek though a 10 or 12" scope then you will be hooked for life

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Hey jjjnettie, Welcome! Thanks for the personal endorsement of the junk reflector. I'm definitely gonna go get one! With you on the binos and the tripod for the 10x50's. Looking at getting one of these (80 or 100mm), for under $500.

[iceman (Mike)]

Hi Jeanette! to the forum!

Great to hear about your binocular + dept store refractor success. I agree, that the binoculars are the first thing I pack when going away on holidays or to a dark site.

Some things just look better in binos, as others have said. Plus, you can use them on holidays, at the cricket, on a boat etc.

[jackenau]

Welcome to the forum Jeanette

As you have basically said, we all start somewhere and the hobby just develops from there. It is just that starting point that may differ.

Some of us may lean towards the goto type scopes, whilst others have the dobs etc, or even just binoculars.

It is that starting point that gets our attention and stimulates us to look for more, or quantify/justify what we have seen, or expect to see.

We don't always purchase wisely for one reason or another, however we have to make the best of what we have intitially purchased and "moo"ve on from there.

"Aperture may rule" in some instances, but it is always a pleasure to just grab a set of binoculars and do a bit of quick observation. It is amazing what can be observed through binoculars or smaller type scopes.

Its all about development, and satisfying ones expectations, as well as justification on what sort of observing equipment we use, or can afford.

Whatever means or size of viewing apparatus we choose, there will always be, (or should be) that level of excitement in what we can view that should satisfy our needs, or at least get us going on searching for more.

Forums such as this, offer a lot of suggestions and useful advice on what you may or may not expect to see as well as ways of enhancing your viewing based on your equipment.

Binoculars of reasonable size are a good starting point and can afford many splendiferous views.

Once again welcome to the forum.

Ken M