One of the greatest problems in Education???

[marki]

I have not personally experienced a great deal of this type of thing thus far (15 years) but many of my colleagues have. What do you think?

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/06/li...nts/index.html

Mark

[TrevorW]

I'd have to agree it's a real problem these days teachers acting as nurses, therapists, nutritionists etc etc.

Children need to learn early IMO that not everyone can be a winner there will be losers, this, every ones a winner hold their hand attitude does little to prepare them for survival in the real world

I don't think my mother visited the schools I attended once during my school years, my mum was a working mum for a lot of those years raising 3 boys by herself

If I received the cane she said I probably deserved it and would give me an extra wack to top it off

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by marki

I have not personally experienced a great deal of this type of thing thus far (15 years) but many of my colleagues have. What do you think?

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/06/li...nts/index.html

Mark

Mark,I had a friend who's sons where kept back after school for some misdemeanour, She was right up the teacher for keeping her kids back.
A few years later she was remarking to me how the teachers have no control over the kids any more, I then told her she and other parents like her where partly to blame for that situation and mentioned the case formentioned.
She didn't appreciate it .
Cheers

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Yes Mark, I believe it.

There are 2 High Schools in Ballarat that have lost control and let the kids run the school.
Both have a reputation for it. One of them had a stabbing last year.

Fortunately my kids did not attend either of the 2 schools.

When discussions came up years ago with other parents about where we were going to send our kids, I suggested 2 schools NOT to send kids to (as a Youth Worker working in conjunction with the Education Dept and Human Services I did some intensive snooping to which I tried to let them know they chose terrible schools and I gave them the evidence). Those Friends of ours scoffed at us for sending our kids to Beaufort Secondary College, saying it is inferior and a bush-hick school, and that we didn't care about our children's education by sending them to a country dump!
They say they chose the right schools.

Within the first 12 months ALL of them transferred their kids out of those 2 schools and into others, including the one I recommended in the first place (Beaufort).

None of them have ever apologised for criticising me, or said they were wrong
They came up with lame excuses like the public transport was awkward etc!

Not only are those 2 schools known for, among other things, letting bullying happen, but it also happens against the teachers!!
They are what we imagine schools in New York's 'The Bronx' and 'Harlem' to be like.

My sister was a Secondary teacher in QLD and she said she knows of teachers that give passing grades because they "just can't be stuffed with the hassles".
My sister got out and now teaches at a Uni.

[mithrandir (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by marki

I have not personally experienced a great deal of this type of thing thus far (15 years) but many of my colleagues have. What do you think?

Mark, SWMBO is a deputy principal and has been a teacher for quite a lot more than your 15 years. She experiences this all the time.

The children are OK. If they do something wrong they usually admit it and take the wrap.

The parents are not. The next day they are threatening legal action because their little darling could not possibly do anything wrong and so was unjustly treated.

The parents give the children everything they ask for. (Hmmm. I think I do that for mine and the grandkids.) The children then can't cope when they do not all get prizes.

"Punishment" is being sent to your room where you can choose which TV program/DVD/computer game you want on your own TV or computer, and where you won't disturb the parents.

I can't see things getting better.

[Poita (Peter)]

It's true, I am doing my pracs at the moment to become a teacher, and the slightest thing that may be possibly construed as negative on a students report tends to end up with parents on the attack. Kids come to school already equipped with phrases like "you can't make me do anything, you can't touch me, I don't have to do anything I don't want to".
Teachers are hamstrung, many parents have set up an impossible situation by the time the kids get to school. At their birthday parties, *every* child gets a prize during pass-the-parcel. I did it the way it worked when I was a kid, a couple of small prizes in the parcel and a bigger one at the end. Kids went nuts saying it wasn't fair, I couldn't believe their reactions, and neither could my daughter.
It is very difficult, teachers really do generally love the kids in their class, they want the best for them, but litigation and pressure from parents, as well a sense of over-entitlement that is present even in the kindy kids makes it very hard.
It seems to have come from a number of areas at once. The affordability of goods now makes kids feel entitled. I earn very little a year, yet could provide my kid with more than I could have dreamed of if I had been in the wealthiest family in Australia in the 70s.
The average 10 year old has a Nintendo DS of some description, or an iPod touch or an iPad, a game console or two at home, large screen TV(s), internet access, laptop/computer access, hi-tech (for the 70s) bikes, scooters, access to any movie pretty much on demand, games and apps that can be bought for a buck or two a throw, dvd players etc. etc. or in our family, access to a telescope and imaging equipment that would have been beyond observatory grade only decades a go.

Not because they are spoilt necessarily, you could buy nearly all that stuff for less than the cost of a single Atari 2600 in 1978, it takes a lot more discipline not to spoil a child now, or lead them to respect goods when they are so cheap and disposable. It is easier to over-feed them as food kilojoule density is a magnitude higher than when I was a child. It is harder to make them respect people or teachers as well when the old hierarchies have dissolved, and the authoritarian practices (in many cases with good reason) have been removed. Restraint generally does not need to be practiced as a matter of course anymore, it has faded from our lives.

It leads us to a difficult situation, parents want to give their kids the best they can, the things they did not have themselves, as a mark of their love and their success. They want to protect them from suffering, and believe the world a more dangerous place (it isn't) than when they were young, so let them take less risks, and by extension shoulder less responsibility. They don't learn the lessons from getting hurt, from trying and failing at something, at breaking something and being unable to have it replaced.

I don't know what the answer is. We need stronger Principals, School Boards and Teachers, we need to educate parents as well that what feels like love is actually hurting their children long term. It is burning teachers out, it is creating kids that are not resilient.

It is not all bad, learning is far more inclusive, bullying in many schools is far better dealt with, even the average schools are better equipped with technology than the best schools were 10 years ago. There is a lot of research going into education, and teachers have to be more qualified than ever, and I do see many great students who are respectful, intuitive and work hard. But parents do seem to have lost their way in larger numbers, and I do think it is mainly due to 'need' being largely removed from society, so we have to artificially construct many of the lessons of patience and growth that came automatically before from hardship and experience.
It is a tricky one.

[marki]

Litigation is of no real concern to most teachers where I work (private college) as the school will deal with that side of things unless the teacher has really done something very very stupid and several parents who have tried to threaten with legal action have soon backed down when they see we are willing to meet them in the courthouse and have recieved legal advice . Never a pleasant experience for anyone involved though. The problem is quite straight forward, everyone went to school thus they profess to be experts on how schools should be run usually with little or no knowledge what so ever about what is really needed (i.e. good parenting for starters). The answer is simple really. There needs to be a collective effort between the primary educators (parents), the students themselves and the teachers to maximize the potential of every kid. I have seen some very good experienced teachers and excellent graduates with great potential leave the profession simply because they were no longer prepared to deal with parental attitudes towards them (we are a sensitive lot but it is a caring profession after all). Many teachers after having a bad experience with a parent will switch off and deliberately stop trying to help the student succeed which is never a good outcome for anyone. So I guess I posted this for all you parents out there in IIS cyberland. Work with your children's teachers, 99.9% actually have your Childs best interests at heart and will work diligently to get the most out of each student to the best of their abilities. If they have to fight your kid in class and you out of class.....well the result is not going to please anyone.

Andrew I have only been teaching 15 years as I worked in industry most of my life like many of the people I work with. We come from all fields far and wide with much life experience. This is very much a trend in teaching in West Oz and the last 3 graduates we hired were all mature age and very well qualified and experienced in their specialist fields.

Mark

[multiweb (Marc)]

The part of 'negotiating' the assignments mark is interesting. There was a lot of that at my boy's school and he was getting quite (rightly) peeved with his physic's teacher. I told him not to worry that eventually everything would level off. He got exactly the same marks between trials and HSC. Most of his 'inflated' mates tanked at the HSC, so it did backfire and went terribly wrong for the kids who were used to get extra marks by arguing their case. Maybe the teacher should have thought about it or was he just trying to please the parents. I don't know the whole story, just the result.

Having said that I don't envy the teachers who have to put up with problem kids who are backed up by even stupider parents and can't do anything because they have their hands tight because of PC or other BS. Don't touch the little angels. That's really unecessary added stress. That's how it starts. Back home the problem has spiraled out of control decades ago. High school teachers get routinely beaten up in the car parks, their car over turned and burned by both kids and families. It's all mainstream in the news now and the norm/expected. Nobody's shocked anymore. Even insurance policies got updated and won't cover you for it.

[blindman]

In short - INCOMPETENCY

[Ausrock (Chris)]

You want to attempt to see a change (for the better)..............make it mandatory (law?) for anyone "at risk" of becoming a parent to have to prove they're capable and responsible. If they "qualify", the Government gives them necessary (financial) support, etc., if they stuff up along the way they jeopardise that support.

Harsh?.........yep. Realistic?..........I wish

[marki]

Originally Posted by multiweb

The part of 'negotiating' the assignments mark is interesting. There was a lot of that at my boy's school and he was getting quite (rightly) peeved with his physic's teacher. I told him not to worry that eventually everything would level off. He got exactly the same marks between trials and HSC. Most of his 'inflated' mates tanked at the HSC, so it did backfire and went terribly wrong for the kids who were used to get extra marks by arguing their case. Maybe the teacher should have thought about it or was he just trying to please the parents. I don't know the whole story, just the result.

Marc I never negotiate grades nor do any of the teachers I know. Kids get what they get........... When I am marking exams etc I deliberately keep names hidden so I don't know whose it is and just assign marks based on merit. It takes a lot of time, skill and effort to develop reliable assessment tools and to override that on a whim is simply stupid and at the very least poor practice if not negligent. Your son's teacher was indeed foolish as the stats process applied across the board when leveling high stake public exams such as the HSC will soon show any descrepencies and if they are more then the accepted 3% he/she will find themselves being moderated by the local gov't body (curriculum council in WA) to find out why. I am suprised your son was not affected as the class and schools performance is also used to moderate and scale the marks kids recieve. You cannot cheat and get away with it or we would all be giving the kids inflated marks to make ourselves look good. Sadly I believe this type of thing will increase in the future as pay scale and funding is linked to results. Education is far too complex and has too many variables to be chucked in such a simple box. There have already been reports of schools cheating on the national testing (teacher sits with kids and they all do it together as a class) and I strongly believe this is linked to looking good on the myschool website to keep the money and customers rolling in. I guess thats what peeves me the most, our schools are becoming simple business models in which kids and their results are just another commodity. As for the rough out of control schools, most will not teach there and only a few dedicated educators will try for whatever reason. They are usually staffed by young graduates shoved into the school by the various state education bodies as cannon fodder but it does allow them to claim every school is fully staffed in the media. The grads last 3 months but by that time all the media hype has died down and the school is left to operate under staffed or they just feed a few more unemployed grads into the barders. It is why the private systems are growing strongly while public education systems slowly sink into the mud.

Mark

[casstony]

'Parents protecting little Johnny' is a minor issue at the two schools I'm familiar with. If needed, Victorian teachers can call upon psychologists from Student Support Services to help improve relationships with difficult parents.

We expect teachers to inform us of any learning difficulty or behavioural problem that our kids may experience, and work as a team to resolve the issue. On one occasion we offered constructive criticism to a school regarding group punishment which we see as outdated and anti-productive; to our surprise the criticism was well recieved and disciplinary procedures changed.

There's a bit of hype in the linked article I think. The biggest source of problems for schools comes from having a greater percentage of kids from low socioeconomic backgrounds along with inadequate support services to help deal with the greater work load, which is more of an issue in the USA.

[marki]

Originally Posted by casstony

'Parents protecting little Johnny' is a minor issue at the two schools I'm familiar with. If needed, Victorian teachers can call upon psychologists from Student Support Services to help improve relationships with difficult parents.

We expect teachers to inform us of any learning difficulty or behavioural problem that our kids may experience, and work as a team to resolve the issue. On one occasion we offered constructive criticism to a school regarding group punishment which we see as outdated and anti-productive; to our surprise the criticism was well recieved and disciplinary procedures changed.

There's a bit of hype in the linked article I think. The biggest source of problems for schools comes from having a greater percentage of kids from low socioeconomic backgrounds along with inadequate support services to help deal with the greater work load, which is more of an issue in the USA.

Tony, parents protecting little Jonny is actually a massive problem even if it is not so obvious at the schools you are familiar with, but perhaps it is but is just kept in house as these things are rarely discussed outside of those involved. We have 3 full time psychologists at my college and they are kept very busy with the fallout of disfunctional family's and we are a private school drawing students from "good areas" so it is definately not restricted to low socio economic areas only. I have found it was actually less of a problem when I worked in a poor area with parents being far more supportive of staff. You have every right as a parent to be informed of misbehaviour and lack of academic progress and teachers try hard to keep parents informed (at my school it is compulsory for teachers to do so as part of their contract and school policy). How parents respond is the key issue here. Why there has been a decline in education standards in the western world (USA, UK, Aus etc) is due to the many false pedogogies taken as gospel, designed and forced on teachers by academic psychologists through faulty curriculum implimented by the governing bodies (eg state govt's). In WA it took more than 10 years of teachers and parents fighting to overturn the curriculum framework which was actually written into legislation despite having been dumped by the UK, USA etc more than 30 years ago. In this state schools must form behaviour management policy based on the Education Act of 2000 and are do not have a great deal of freedom in how they structure these programs. These are further complicated by the governing bodies policy and is slightly different in each sector (state, catholic and independant) so each change must be carefully research and tested (lawyers) before implimentation. I would imagine this is the case in all other states as well. In a nut shell it is not a simple case of just changing things. Again the real question here is how will you as a parent respond to contact by a teacher concerning your childs progress or lack of? Support the teachers, work as a team and hopefully the best possible outcomes for your child will be achieved.

Mark

[GrahamL]

I don't agree with the general tone of the article in that it seems to imply that problems facing teachers leaving the US education system are largely to do with parents .


Maybe its a combination of many things rather than one ?


Much like Tony I've encountered very few negatives over our kids
time in school .The most frustrateing was our youngest who has a congenital brain injury(well documented) , I saw over a few days his teacher in third year would continually use his problems with memory and tasking to embarass and belittle him in the classroom,I tried to discuss and point out, politely , to her how negative her behaviour was,the very next day exactly the same.

[casstony]

In California public schools are funded from the local community, such that schools in wealthy areas are excellent while schools in poor areas are terrible - there's no central funding distribution according to need like we have here in Australia. Families try to move to wealthy areas to acquire the right to send their kids to the good public schools, and some lie about their address to sneak their kids into a better school.

I'd suggest that teachers in the poorer schools with less resources and greater work load would be more likely to leave the job, and that perhaps there's a lot more behind teacher dissatisfaction than having to deal with difficult parents.

[marki]

Originally Posted by casstony

I'd suggest that teachers in the poorer schools with less resources and greater work load would be more likely to leave the job, and that perhaps there's a lot more behind teacher dissatisfaction than having to deal with difficult parents.

You are correct in that there are a great many reasons why teachers leave (it all accummulates over time) but from one who works in the profession I can say the greatest single decision maker is when there is a total lack of respect towards a teacher from both children and their parents. Many have been the subject of violent acts (more than 300 last year in WA alone both student and parental attacks), ridicule via cyber baiting or just plain lied about and are removed from teaching duties pending court proceedings (a handy way of removing someone who is challenging your behaviour). Then there is the issue of bad parenting which cannot be put aside here. Many children have the the manners of goats and would not even comprehend the meaning of respect. Many of these kids have a strong belief in their rights (to do anything they want) yet zero interest in the responsibility that goes alone with it. They will lie to your face just as easily as they breath oxygen and their parents will back them all the way like its a silly game. How long would you stay under such conditions?


Mark

[marki]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

Much like Tony I've encountered very few negatives over our kids
time in school .The most frustrateing was our youngest who has a congenital brain injury(well documented) , I saw over a few days his teacher in third year would continually use his problems with memory and tasking to embarass and belittle him in the classroom,I tried to discuss and point out, politely , to her how negative her behaviour was,the very next day exactly the same.

I am sorry to hear this but it is all too common and will only get worse over time. It started when the decision was made to remove children from specialist programmes and put them in mainstream classes based on some vague arguments of equality. It is also why kids who have not achieved satisfactory results are no longer kept back a year so they can catch up and are instead shoved through education gaining very little but a deep seated sense of inadequacy in themselves and their abilities. 99% of your classroom teachers have little if any useful training in producing meaningful programmes for kids with learning difficulties (and there are many types requiring many different approaches) and despite the promises made by admin both local and area to support teachers in this situation little is ever forthcoming and you are left to make it up on your own with no idea of what you are doing. Teachers sometimes have several kids with special needs in a single class which can effectively blow their workload up into impossible proportions and this generally leads to these kids getting put in the corner recieving little or totally inadequate tuition and a teacher who is totally overwhelmed and cannot cope. What you witnessed was a childish act of resentment by your sons teacher, attacking your son rather then being proactive and seeking help based on her own feelings of inadequacy. Much of the time the parents have far greater knowlege of their childs condition then the teacher has and this is often poorly communicated not by the parents but by those who are responsible for passing such info onto the teachers. I have taught many such kids over the years from those with mild memory problems right through to severe and sometimes violent autism. It is hard work and when you have three or four in a single class all hell breaks loose. By our legislation we are legally bound to deal with it which means an individualised programmes must be written and taught for each child (5 lessons in one) and coupled with your usual crew of misbehaving students it is little wonder many teachers lose the plot.

Mark

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by marki

Marc I never negotiate grades nor do any of the teachers I know. Kids get what they get...........

And that's the way it should be. I didn't mean to say this was common practice. It happened only with this particular teacher. I was very surprised when that was going on. I confronted him (nicely) at the last meeting after the trials and he was uneasy explaining the practice so I didn't push the matter in case of adverse effects on the kid's markings.

Originally Posted by marki

Your son's teacher was indeed foolish as the stats process applied across the board when leveling high stake public exams such as the HSC will soon show any descrepencies and if they are more then the accepted 3% he/she will find themselves being moderated by the local gov't body (curriculum council in WA) to find out why.

I didn't know this was monitored by the education system. I will keep this in mind.

Originally Posted by marki

I am suprised your son was not affected as the class and schools performance is also used to moderate and scale the marks kids recieve.

It did affect his ATAR which is a class ranking as some kids ended up sneaking in between the 1st spot and his which peeved him right off. But in the end he got an early offer at UTS for exactly what he wanted. His school got ranked up in the final stage of the marking because they were deemed having a 'handicap'.

[casstony]

The high work load deriving from bad parenting/behavioural problems and from kids with special needs can be ameliorated with assistance from Student Support Services, but there are too few psychologists and speech therapists to properly cope with the demands. Proper levels of support will only be available if teachers demand it from the govt (ie. employ more staff).

Psychologists can train teachers in techniques to deal with specific needs in the classroom. (eg. Understanding that an autistic child doesn't comprehend normal social cues and takes things very literally will help with communication). Teachers need to demand adequate support and be open to using all resources at hand in order to achieve the best outcome for kids. I'm not saying it's an easy task; employees everywhere are pushed by the boss to do more with less and teachers are no different - you have to fight for workers rights just like the rest of us.

[Poita (Peter)]

Trust me, we demand, kick, scream, beg and appeal. Teachers are pretty active and adamant with demanding more resources, we currently have *one* psychologist for 5 schools, which is a ridiculous situation, we have gone through all of the official channels and tried to get community support as well, but to no avail so far. We also have the situation of jobs being available but no-one to fill them. Why work in the schools as a Psychologist and make a quarter of what you could in private practice? How do you get a psychologist to want to work in rural areas? In some cases the money is there, but the people can't be convinced to come. We even offered to house them for a year free of charge!

Nightstalker, I am horrified to hear of your child's experience. It is part of the reason we sought out a school with a 'special needs unit' for our child rather than mainstreaming.
When I was working my way through my teaching degree I was very much in favour of mainstreaming from an ideological point of view. As I got more experience and realised that the one semester subject was the only training I was going to get on meeting the needs of students with special needs, I realised that mainstreaming would be unlikely to work for our child regardless of the best intentions of the school or teachers. In a mainstream classroom it is extremely difficult, even if you are trained and experienced, and especially if they don't qualify for a support teacher.
She started this week and loves it, the class is great and the school is wonderful. It was the right choice for us, it may be worth investigating.

I'd agree with most of what Mark has said, the curriculum is difficult and there is very little a teacher can do to stray from it. It has been developed with the best intentions and based on solid research and great ideals of inclusion and no child being left behind etc. but it isn't working in practice. There are some positives to it, but the overly lofty 'justice' goals tend towards encouraging mediocrity. I had a situation at a private Catholic school where I wasn't allowed to give a student an advanced reader (a book that was at his level) as it would make the rest of the class feel bad as they were nowhere near his level.
Needless to say the whole 'year' at that school was on a considerably lower level than at other 'lower class' public schools I have been at.
I also find schools that draw from lower socio-economic groups are sometimes better with better relationships and support from parents, they are often more willing to not be overprotective or precious with their kids. Of course there are problem parents at any school.

It takes a strong principal and a cohesive supported staff to deliver a great education, much like in politics, it often means you have to do things that may be a bit unpopular with parents and if the media gets involved it becomes a nightmare.

It isn't all doom and gloom, if as a parent you are involved, read to your kids, get to know your teacher and be supportive, then you are maximising your kids' chance for a great education and a successful life.
A little bit of support from the parents can make all the difference and it can stop you as a teacher wanting to pack it all in!

(I apologise for the typos, this rant was typed on my phone!)

Originally Posted by casstony

The high work load deriving from bad parenting/behavioural problems and from kids with special needs can be ameliorated with assistance from Student Support Services, but there are too few psychologists and speech therapists to properly cope with the demands. Proper levels of support will only be available if teachers demand it from the govt (ie. employ more staff).

Psychologists can train teachers in techniques to deal with specific needs in the classroom. (eg. Understanding that an autistic child doesn't comprehend normal social cues and takes things very literally will help with communication). Teachers need to demand adequate support and be open to using all resources at hand in order to achieve the best outcome for kids. I'm not saying it's an easy task; employees everywhere are pushed by the boss to do more with less and teachers are no different - you have to fight for workers rights just like the rest of us.