Why we buy overseas

[TrevorW]

I recently contacted a local engineering/metal fabrication company with a request to make a new counter weight shaft 1" by 24" and collar for my EQ6

I was supplying the material for the shaft which only needed to have a thread and maybe a counterweight stop made up for it

the collar could be made from a small piece of aluminium

quoted $350 but they couldn't do the job until after the end of January

I wasn't even asking for a new counterweight

I can purchase a complete kit from England for around $350 including freight and this comes with a 10kg stainless steel counterweight


and you wonder (maybe not) why we buy overseas

[snowyskiesau]

I'd guess about 30 minutes for an experienced machinist to do what you wanted. Gone are the days when you turned up on a friday afternoon with a slab of beer and got the job done for nothing

Sounds like they didn't really want the work and quoted you an over the top figure to get rid of you. I can't understand this - if your shop is too busy or you don't want to do it for some reason, then why not just say so?

[GeoffW1 (Geoff)]

Yes,

I bought a Chester Creek Tiny Mouse for our grand daughter. It is listed on Amazon for US$17 + shipping, which, based on the books I buy from there, should be about US$15 or so, if we are patient.

However Amazon would not ship it to Oz. That usually means there is an Aust agent with an exclusive agreement with the suppliers.

Sure enough, I can buy it in Oz, from Qld, for A$54 + A$15 postage and handling. Not much difference in absolute terms, but enough to make us go offshore if we can.

That is still buying off the internet I guess, but an indication of the difference I would face at a retail outlet too. I have not much sympathy for the bleatings of Gerry Harvey.

Cheers

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

quoted $350 but they couldn't do the job until after the end of January

I wasn't even asking for a new counterweight

I can purchase a complete kit from England for around $350 including freight and this comes with a 10kg stainless steel counterweight


and you wonder (maybe not) why we buy overseas

I'm sure if you went to a custom machine shop in UK you would get a similar price. Why waste time comparing production run prices to one off custom shop prices ? What exactly does it prove ?

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

I'm sure if you went to a custom machine shop in UK you would get a similar price. Why waste time comparing production run prices to one off custom shop prices ? What exactly does it prove ?

Yeah I agree with this, also wondering how many metal fabricators were contacted as well.
I know that if a production run product is not available in AUS and was available overseas then I would also buy it from overseas (and that is saying something). Otherwise I would buy the machinery to make it myself if i thought it was worth it.

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

I'm sure if you went to a custom machine shop in UK you would get a similar price. Why waste time comparing production run prices to one off custom shop prices ? What exactly does it prove ?

So you reckon $350 for about 1 hr maybe 2 at the most work in total is reasonable

[Barrykgerdes]

A one of job like that would not leave any profit for a machine shop at that price. I certainly would not make it for less as a business proposition. One of machining jobs cannot be compared with a production run.

However if I needed one I would make it.
A run down to the steel store for a piece of bright steel shaft (stainless is out of the question). Machine the shaft to the right size then set up the lathe to cut a thread and then cut it, about half an hour. Cut off a piece of aluminium shaft to make a collar (I already have a suitable piece of bar stock). Machine the collar to size then drill and tap for a locking bolt another half hour. Total time including trip to the steel store about 2.5 hours. cost of materials about $10.

Barry

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

So you reckon $350 for about 1 hr maybe 2 at the most work in total is reasonable

This is the rub... totally unreasonable in the way of a cost. I agree that to compare the prices versus a commercially produced quantity is not fair, but come one people... If I were Trevor and decided to pay that amount, I'd seriously consider investing in steel underwear...

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

So you reckon $350 for about 1 hr maybe 2 at the most work in total is reasonable

I am pretty sure the manufacturer would have costed the first unit quite high. Production runs are alway cheaper and is no comparison.

Engineering places are alway very very expensive for single runs, there are certain costs involve setting up machinery and more that would add costs, I received a quote for my EQ Platform for 2 radius's only at $480.00 me supplying the wood. I also ask for a run of 20 and the cost came down drastically nearly $200.00 each. There is always a down time from other projects to setup machinery. Engineering workshops are more suitable for manufactures considering production run than hobbiest unless you know someone.

Seeing EQ radius change with location I could not make a production run of them via an engineering company so I decided to make the manufacturing equipment myself.

[rally]

I think the problem with the argument put forward on perceived value is based on some incorrect assumptions about how much time, energy and cost is involved with the machining of such a job.

Without seeing exactly the design its always difficult to make an estimate.
But really this is always a job for your poor mate who has access to the right equipment - who can be suckered into doing it for a beer and after he's finished swear he'll never do it again for anyone because it took 10 times longer than it "should have" !

There is a saying that goes a little like this - "What 10 minute job ever took less than half a day" !

But I am guessing there are many hours of work involved in making those two relatively "simple" parts as a one off job.
Quite likely 3-4 hours maybe even more - depending on the collar design.

My discussion here is based on it being done manually - if its being CNC machined the tool setup time and programming time for any job is hours and $100's before you even start - rarely viable for a one off job unless there are complicated features, but infinitely cheaper (and better) on bigger runs.

Were accurate drawings supplied ?, were they properly toleranced ?
If not who has to do them ? - the machinist can't make assumptions about the parts he needs to know pretty accurately.
If mating parts were supplied as a reference they still need to be measured - eg internal thread diameters measured to determine pitch, diameter and the fit - too tight or too loose, too long or too short and it just doesnt work !

The first problem I can envisage lies in the finish on the parts - the machinist will probably assume that since its for a telescope/astronomy application that surface finish needs to be high and tolerances kept tight (add 20-30% extra time)
This job most likely necessitated machining up two pairs of soft jaws to hold the second side of the shaft and the second side of the collar - add an extra hour to the job - at least - or at least making up a sleeve to hold the part so as not to mark or bruise the shaft with the jaws.

Machining stainless steel can be "fun" at the best of times, but if the customer supplies an unknown grade of stainless steel of unknown machineability - the problems can start right from the very outset.
The machinist would/should know this and would possibly add something for this uncertainty.

Hopefully the customer buys a longer length of everything so that the machinst can actually hang onto it !
How much extra length is required ? - depends on the design, the tools, the process and the machine and chucks being used.

It is highly likely that some carbide inserts will be broken on such a job and just as likely that they might need to be purchased especially for the job - I am guessing the collar has an internal thread.
Its not like every machine shop has every tool with inserts of every grade of every size suitable for every job just laying around - its just not finanically possible.
Machine shops work with 50 different types of material - various nylons and plastics, non ferrous metals like brass, bronze, aluminium and copper plus many rarer types like titanium, monels, various grades of stainless etc etc, many different grades of steel from mild steel to high tensile, tool steel and cast iron.
All of these require different cutting tools, insert designs and coatings and different cutting conditions.

Inserts are likely to cost between $10 and $25+ each - given its stainless steel item allow a few inserts (some tools wont need new ones, some tools will and some might break.

One needs to potentally swap from internal to external jaws on the collar and swap from standard roughing jaws to custom machined finishing jaws on the shaft.
That might mean two or four changes of jaws.

Along the way the job needs to be measured and checked either dimensionally or for fit - this takes time and in the case of threads on one off jobs you usually cant afford to take it down to size in one operation - thats a recipe for disaster (you'll cut to much !) - so you have to cut the thread a number of times and progess down to size.
That adds extra time.

It also creates a lot of stringy swarf that has to be removed while the job is being turned so as not to get caught up and damage the freshly cut threads - it can be finicky and it all takes time.

When they have finished doing your job, the machine and the work area needs to be cleaned and the tools, lubricants etc put away - it takes (billable) time to do this !

Usually there is some hand filing/linishing or deburring - only takes a few minutes, but hand finishing off internal stainless threads is not exactly a quick process.

I am assuming there are no flats on the shaft or holes drilled across it or in the collar - if so then milling is required - that will certainly add substantially to the cost.

I could try to summarise the processes, but without a design its potentially a futile exercise but there are many tool changes and potential setups and if the collar has an internal thread then there are a few extra processed such as internal grooving and internal threading that are time consuming.

This all assumes the job goes well - some machinists will rightly add some sort of risk value to such a job since they will be left to replace the stainless steel from their own pocket if something goes wrong not to mention doing the entire job twice !

Of course if its a production CNC machining job and the raw materials of exactly the right diameters and surface finish are used the shaft could possible be made in a matter of a few minutes (depending on its features) and the collar in maybe 5-7 minutes (again depending on its features.

So as stated there is little point comparing a custom one off with a commerical production item.

In this instance the argument might be better directed at why the production item costs so much !

Either way its always difficult to buy a quality $350 machined item for next to nothing.

Why not put up a copy of the drawings and I can give you a realistic assessment of what is involved.

Cheers

Rally

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

I was supplying the material for the shaft which only needed to have a thread and maybe a counterweight stop made up for it

Point of order... Trevor was supplying everything. Any machine shop worth its salt would be able to do this with minimal effort. Arguing setup etc is ridiculous, as setup time is practically non-existent.

Thus, I would still argue that A$350 is too much.


OIC!
P.S. for comparison, the machine shop I use charges U$20/hr for "analysis" U$55/hr on the machine.

[Jaybee (John)]

I don't think what Trevor is asking for is really off the chart, that the machine shop would have to set up specialised equipment. I think its more that fact they wern't interested. I have a Local Machine Shop that I use and their prices are fair and reasonable. I recently had a non astro part made for a custom workbench. It wasn't too technical, but involved machining a piece of 1200mm x 100mm x 10mm Aluminium Bar along one edge to a chamfer, drilling and tapping several holes, fitting some extra pieces of smaller Aluminium bar, and setting a handle into it. They supplied all the materials and did all the work, total cost $95.00 I being an Engraver, have a lot of one off's that need setting up, but its not a licence to charge like a wounded bull and rip off customers...I wouldn't have too many left if I did that.
Trevor, can you send detailed drawings of what you want to me? I'll get my Machine shop here to have a look at it and quote you.

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

I don't think what Trevor is asking for is really off the chart, that the machine shop would have to set up specialised equipment. I think its more that fact they wern't interested. I have a Local Machine Shop that I use and their prices are fair and reasonable. I recently had a non astro part made for a custom workbench. It wasn't too technical, but involved machining a piece of 1200mm x 100mm x 10mm Aluminium Bar along one edge to a chamfer, drilling and tapping several holes, fitting some extra pieces of smaller Aluminium bar, and setting a handle into it. They supplied all the materials and did all the work, total cost $95.00 I being an Engraver, have a lot of one off's that need setting up, but its not a licence to charge like a wounded bull and rip off customers...I wouldn't have too many left if I did that.
Trevor, can you send detailed drawings of what you want to me? I'll get my Machine shop here to have a look at it and quote you.

OMG!!! Common sense prevails after all....


<edit> Sorry guys.. this topic has touched a very sensitive nerve in me... ha ha.

[Tandum (Robin)]

Trevor, just try another shop in the new year. I'm quoting ridiculous prices just now to get rid of the 'I want it before xmas' overflow. I got one of these made for $80 which seemed ok for a one off.

[bloodhound31]

Originally Posted by rally

I think the problem with the argument put forward on perceived value is based on some incorrect assumptions about how much time, energy and cost is involved with the machining of such a job.

Without seeing exactly the design its always difficult to make an estimate.
But really this is always a job for your poor mate who has access to the right equipment - who can be suckered into doing it for a beer and after he's finished swear he'll never do it again for anyone because it took 10 times longer than it "should have" !

There is a saying that goes a little like this - "What 10 minute job ever took less than half a day" !

But I am guessing there are many hours of work involved in making those two relatively "simple" parts as a one off job.
Quite likely 3-4 hours maybe even more - depending on the collar design.

My discussion here is based on it being done manually - if its being CNC machined the tool setup time and programming time for any job is hours and $100's before you even start - rarely viable for a one off job unless there are complicated features, but infinitely cheaper (and better) on bigger runs.

Were accurate drawings supplied ?, were they properly toleranced ?
If not who has to do them ? - the machinist can't make assumptions about the parts he needs to know pretty accurately.
If mating parts were supplied as a reference they still need to be measured - eg internal thread diameters measured to determine pitch, diameter and the fit - too tight or too loose, too long or too short and it just doesnt work !

The first problem I can envisage lies in the finish on the parts - the machinist will probably assume that since its for a telescope/astronomy application that surface finish needs to be high and tolerances kept tight (add 20-30% extra time)
This job most likely necessitated machining up two pairs of soft jaws to hold the second side of the shaft and the second side of the collar - add an extra hour to the job - at least - or at least making up a sleeve to hold the part so as not to mark or bruise the shaft with the jaws.

Machining stainless steel can be "fun" at the best of times, but if the customer supplies an unknown grade of stainless steel of unknown machineability - the problems can start right from the very outset.
The machinist would/should know this and would possibly add something for this uncertainty.

Hopefully the customer buys a longer length of everything so that the machinst can actually hang onto it !
How much extra length is required ? - depends on the design, the tools, the process and the machine and chucks being used.

It is highly likely that some carbide inserts will be broken on such a job and just as likely that they might need to be purchased especially for the job - I am guessing the collar has an internal thread.
Its not like every machine shop has every tool with inserts of every grade of every size suitable for every job just laying around - its just not finanically possible.
Machine shops work with 50 different types of material - various nylons and plastics, non ferrous metals like brass, bronze, aluminium and copper plus many rarer types like titanium, monels, various grades of stainless etc etc, many different grades of steel from mild steel to high tensile, tool steel and cast iron.
All of these require different cutting tools, insert designs and coatings and different cutting conditions.

Inserts are likely to cost between $10 and $25+ each - given its stainless steel item allow a few inserts (some tools wont need new ones, some tools will and some might break.

One needs to potentally swap from internal to external jaws on the collar and swap from standard roughing jaws to custom machined finishing jaws on the shaft.
That might mean two or four changes of jaws.

Along the way the job needs to be measured and checked either dimensionally or for fit - this takes time and in the case of threads on one off jobs you usually cant afford to take it down to size in one operation - thats a recipe for disaster (you'll cut to much !) - so you have to cut the thread a number of times and progess down to size.
That adds extra time.

It also creates a lot of stringy swarf that has to be removed while the job is being turned so as not to get caught up and damage the freshly cut threads - it can be finicky and it all takes time.

When they have finished doing your job, the machine and the work area needs to be cleaned and the tools, lubricants etc put away - it takes (billable) time to do this !

Usually there is some hand filing/linishing or deburring - only takes a few minutes, but hand finishing off internal stainless threads is not exactly a quick process.

I am assuming there are no flats on the shaft or holes drilled across it or in the collar - if so then milling is required - that will certainly add substantially to the cost.

I could try to summarise the processes, but without a design its potentially a futile exercise but there are many tool changes and potential setups and if the collar has an internal thread then there are a few extra processed such as internal grooving and internal threading that are time consuming.

This all assumes the job goes well - some machinists will rightly add some sort of risk value to such a job since they will be left to replace the stainless steel from their own pocket if something goes wrong not to mention doing the entire job twice !

Of course if its a production CNC machining job and the raw materials of exactly the right diameters and surface finish are used the shaft could possible be made in a matter of a few minutes (depending on its features) and the collar in maybe 5-7 minutes (again depending on its features.

So as stated there is little point comparing a custom one off with a commerical production item.

In this instance the argument might be better directed at why the production item costs so much !

Either way its always difficult to buy a quality $350 machined item for next to nothing.

Why not put up a copy of the drawings and I can give you a realistic assessment of what is involved.

Cheers

Rally

Having worked with these machines (manual and CNC) off and on for most of my life, plus been a purchasing manager in the building industry for the last four years, working very closely with dozens of metal fabricators in Australia and overseas, I totally agree and can first-hand back-up Rally's comments.

For the one-off you have requested, $350 might seem excessive for what most of us might think fairly simple. But, to those who have spent the hours piss-farting around with "foreign" jobs and know what is involved with getting it just as the customer wants (or imagines) and the repercussions of it not being so, $350 is totally reasonable.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but there you have the no-holds-barred, truth and guts of the matter.

Hence I make my own stuff when the need arises.

Baz.

[beren]

Have used this company before to make up some parts, another option if you want to try another shop.

[taminga16 (Greg)]

Trevor,
Get in touch with your local Men's Shed group. Hidden away in almost every suburb there is a Bloke with the gear to fix or fabricate almost anything.
Greg.
P.S. and it keeps the UNITY in Community.

[Barrykgerdes]

Originally Posted by taminga16

Trevor,
Get in touch with your local Men's Shed group. Hidden away in almost every suburb there is a Bloke with the gear to fix or fabricate almost anything.
Greg.
P.S. and it keeps the UNITY in Community.

I have never heard of the "mens shed group" but all the neighbours know I fix anything from computers to engineering works. It does make for a very pleasant neighbourhood and I get gardening, mowing, painting, food done in return. No money ever changes hands.

Barry

[taminga16 (Greg)]

Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes

I have never heard of the "mens shed group" but all the neighbours know I fix anything from computers to engineering works. It does make for a very pleasant neighbourhood and I get gardening, mowing, painting, food done in return. No money ever changes hands.

Barry

Check Google Barry, although it sounds as if you are already involved, your local shed just doesn't have a shared roof.

Greg.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes

I have never heard of the "mens shed group" but all the neighbours know I fix anything from computers to engineering works. It does make for a very pleasant neighbourhood and I get gardening, mowing, painting, food done in return. No money ever changes hands.
Barry

Sounds great - we need a Barry on every block .

I think this sort of cooperation is more common in smaller towns and where generations of families have lived in the same town - takes time to build connections when you shift somewhere new.