surprised by nursery rhyme violence

[troypiggo (Troy)]

Imagine sitting down to read a nursery rhyme to your baby to help him sleep, not really knowing the words to even the common rhymes, and reading half way through one about beating dogs, biting pigs, killing oxes, hanging butchers and so on. I've quoted below the nursery rhyme. It's called "The Old Woman and her Pig", and it's from the very innocent-looking "Mother Goose's Nursery Rhymes" book containing all the classics. I've quoted the whole thing below.

Don't get me wrong. I'm no prude, and I know for the little ones it's probably more about the sound of my voice rather than the content. He doesn't understand what's actually being said. I know that.

Still, makes you wonder. People criticise today's video games, movies etc. Yet generation after generation has been reciting these words to their newborns for centuries. Political correctness? Meh.

An old woman was sweeping her house, and she found a little crooked sixpence. “What,” said she, “shall I do with this little sixpence? I will go to market, and buy a little pig.”

As she was coming home, she came to a stile: but the piggy wouldn’t go over the stile.

She went a little further, and she met a dog. So she said to the dog: “Dog! bite pig; piggy won’t go over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the dog wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met a stick. So she said: “Stick! stick! beat dog! dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the stick wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met a fire. So she said: “Fire! fire! burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the fire wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met some water. So she said: “Water, water! quench fire; fire won’t burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the water wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met an ox. So she said: “Ox! ox! drink water; water won’t quench fire; fire won’t burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the ox wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met a butcher. So she said: “Butcher! butcher! kill ox; ox won’t drink water; water won’t quench fire; fire won’t burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the butcher wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met a rope. So she said: “Rope! rope! hang butcher; butcher won’t kill ox; ox won’t drink water; water won’t quench fire; fire won’t burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the rope wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met a rat. So she said: “Rat! rat! gnaw rope; rope won’t hang butcher; butcher won’t kill ox; ox won’t drink water; water won’t quench fire; fire won’t burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the rat wouldn’t.

She went a little further, and she met a cat. So she said: “Cat! cat! kill rat; rat won’t gnaw rope; rope won’t hang butcher; butcher won’t kill ox; ox won’t drink water; water won’t quench fire; fire won’t burn stick; stick won’t beat dog; dog won’t bite pig; piggy won’t get over the stile; and I shan’t get home to-night.” But the cat said to her, “If you will go to yonder cow, and fetch me a saucer of milk, I will kill the rat.” So away went the old woman to the cow.

But the cow said to her: “If you will go to yonder hay-stack, and fetch me a handful of hay, I’ll give you the milk.” So away went the old woman to the haystack and she brought the hay to the cow.

As soon as the cow had eaten the hay, she gave the old woman the milk; and away she went with it in a saucer to the cat.

As soon as the cat had lapped up the milk, the cat began to kill the rat; the rat began to gnaw the rope; the rope began to hang the butcher; the butcher began to kill the ox; the ox began to drink the water; the water began to quench the fire; the fire began to burn the stick; the stick began to beat the dog; the dog began to bite the pig; the little pig in a fright jumped over the stile, and so the old woman got home that night.

Charming. Suppose there was a happy ending. She got home that night...

[Jim]

"See-saw, Margery Daw" advocates child labour.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

aye,
Try this one then, it's all about the neighbourhood kids contracting Bubonic Plague.

Ring-a-ring o' roses,
A pocket full of posies,
A-tishoo! A-tishoo!
We all fell down.

http://www.rhymes.org.uk/ring_around_the_rosy.htm

[renormalised (Carl)]

Why complain. I'd rather kids be listening to nursery rhymes than watching TV or playing video games at the age they'd be listening to these. You want to cut back on violence exhibited to kids, then curtail the TV and the games altogether. They're the problem, not the nursery rhymes.

In any case, these "nursery rhymes" were never meant for kids in the first place. Most were coded rhymes made up by adults for adults "consumption" and half of them had political messages to begin with. Three Blind Mice, for example. Baa Baa Black Sheep is another. It's about class divisions within society.

They only became "proper nursery rhymes" in the mid to late 19th Century.

[Suzy]

Crikey that is a doozey of a nursery rhyme. I didn't know about that one and probably just as well

Back then, many of the classics had some form of violence in them didn't they (though this one sure takes the cake). Remember Little Red Riding Hood? It got changed for this generation; instead of the wolf eating the grandmother, the new version has it that the grandmother hides in the wardrobe.

Sheez, and they had the hide to take Humphrey off the air for a while because having no underwear was offensive, and fat cat didn't come back because, oh wait, now I forget (but it was a silly reason) and Sponge Bob Squarepants had gay connotations, and the black gollywog in Noddy got banned because it attracted raciscm and they also had a go (did they succeed?) with Noddy and Big ears appearing gay as well.

Blimey, this is nothing compared to what I just read.

[multiweb (Marc)]

My grand mother use to tell us witches stories when me and my brother were young before turning the lights off. We use to s||t ourselves for a good 30min before actually sleeping. Can't do this now these days with all the PC BS

[renormalised (Carl)]

The kids these days are mollycoddled and allowed to get away with blue murder and people wonder why there's so many kids going off the rails. Good discipline and a scare every now and then never hurt anyone

[troypiggo (Troy)]

Carl - I think you missed my point. I wasn't complaining about it really, just surprised considering all of the other things that are criticised and nit-picked about these days with all this PC going on in the last, what, 20 years maybe?

The above quote was just one of them. There's more that I was surprised about. I know they all have history and different themes - politics etc.

Funny what we read to our kids though. Might as well read them the newspaper.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by troypiggo

Carl - I think you missed my point. I wasn't complaining about it really, just surprised considering all of the other things that are criticised and nit-picked about these days with all this PC going on in the last, what, 20 years maybe?

The above quote was just one of them. There's more that I was surprised about. I know they all have history and different themes - politics etc.

Funny what we read to our kids though. Might as well read them the newspaper.

I know what your point was...I was making the point that why complain about nursery rhymes when you have the TV and such. They're far worse than the nursery rhymes would ever be. PC nonsense started on US uni campuses back in the 80's and now we have to put up with it because of some noisy, lame brained humanities academics and vote grabbing, popularity seeking pollies.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Good discipline and a scare every now and then never hurt anyone

I tend to agree with that one. The fear factor is a necessary ingredient of good parenting. Boundaries and consequences. You draw the line and stay consitent.

[space oddity]

The nursery rhymes of old certainly had their sinister undertones. Now I am waiting for the PC brigade to start wanting to ban them. I reckon we should cancel the election of 2 bit pollies and replace it with a referrendum to ban political correctness.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Jim

"See-saw, Margery Daw" advocates child labour.

I'd heard that 'Margery Daw' is rhyming slang for a lady of the night. In this context 'see-saw' is easily understood. The next bit ...' Jonny shall have a new master, he shall have but a penny a day because he can't go any faster' is about the abolition of hourly wages and the introduction of piece work ... apparently under unfavourable conditions for the workers. I'm not sure whether it directly advocates child labour but the employment conditions certainly promote it.

[Craig.a.c (Craig)]

Humpty Dumpty was a cannon that came off it's wall the first time it was fired.

[troypiggo (Troy)]

Certainly interesting hearing all the stories behind the rhymes.

I guess the bluntness and out in the open "hang the butcher" is a little more obvious.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Craig.a.c

Humpty Dumpty was a cannon that came off it's wall the first time it was fired.

Hmmm, I hope no one was standing under humpty.

[lacad01 (Adam)]

Am sure the animal advocate groups would be appalled by "Sing a a song of sixpence" and the blackbirds baked in a pie. But I guess the birds get their revenge by pecking off the nose of the poor maid

[Barrykgerdes]

I learnt the source of the nursery rhymes 65 years ago at school and what they actually described. Don't they teach that any more.

To the young ones they are part of growing up and a source of amusement. I for one never saw the hidden meanings till I was old enough to understand.

The obsession of political correction and its distortion of the truth is more harmful to the young than the hidden meanings of "stories"

Baz

[taminga16 (Greg)]

One of my favourite nursery rhymes is 'The Land Of Nod' by Robert Louis Stevenson. Natalie Merchant has recently released an album of very old and well researched Nursery Rhymes (Leave Your Sleep) that is a wonderful listen.
Greg.

[PCH (Paul)]

Originally Posted by lacad01

Am sure the animal advocate groups would be appalled by "Sing a a song of sixpence" and the blackbirds baked in a pie. But I guess the birds get their revenge by pecking off the nose of the poor maid

As a fan of historical novels, I read in one recently set in the middle ages, that it was normal for your royalty/nobility at their banquets to try to impress guests by incorporating all manner of live animals, but certainly birds, in great big pies brought to the table. Usually inserted at the end of cooking so that they remained alive, these poor creatures would be itching to get out once the pie crust was removed at the table.

The spectacle of the birds etc fluttering and flapping once they were freed was thought spectacular. So 4 and 20 blackbirds baked in a pie was a literally rendition of what went on.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Craig.a.c

Humpty Dumpty was a cannon that came off it's wall the first time it was fired.

That's one theory anyway, there are several other theorys and evidence to the source being a variety of events and people through history.