Ultra faint tidal stream around M104

strongmanmike (Michael) · #1 03-07-2010, 10:40 AM

Some time ago I saw a deep enhanced Schmidt plate by David Malin showing never before seen faint extensions surrounding The Sombrero galaxy M104 with a faint tidal stream also visible.

Could these faint features be extracted from the 210min of data I had taken recently using a modern sensitive CCD and 6" telescope...?...the answer is YES

http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike20...73938/original

I was amazed to see the tidal stream loop below and slightly to the right of the galaxy. Tidal Streams are the faint remains of long ago torn apart companion galaxies.

The superimposed normal shot of M104 gives an idea of just how far reaching these faint features are.

I would estimate the surface brightness of the faintest extensions visible to be somewhere around 28mag/square arc sec perhaps..?

Click on the image to see the rest of the "normally" processed image versions.

I had managed to reveal similarly faint details around Centaurus A but that was with 15 hours of data collected from a perfect dark site, to me being able to see similarly faint details in just 3hrs worth of data taken through a 6" telescope from semi rural skies is really quite incredible

.

Deep Cen A: http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike20...08746/original

Mike

h0ughy (David) · #2 03-07-2010, 10:47 AM

Mike,

it is indeed a treat to see things like this - it gives some hope for what someone can achieve - imagine what you could get with a 12" or 20" yourself with the 6" as a giude scope

very well presented Mike!!

avandonk · #3 03-07-2010, 11:16 AM

Not a bad effort Mike. Just shows how a near perfect refractor and an ultra sensitive camera with high signal to noise can perform.

The signal in the 18" Schmidt is about nine times that of your six inch APO Mike. This means the signal to noise of your camera is about ten times better than David Malins film and enhancement by masking method. The only parameter that matters is signal to noise!

I would try just enhancing your green data as it does not suffer as much as blue does from extinction and red from light pollution. The green data should have far better signal to noise for the really faint stuff. The atmosphere is also more transparent for green wavelengths. You could also try just leaving out the blue data.

When my 300mm lens grows up it wants to be as good as your six inch APO.

We used to have a saying in CSIRO 'When only one person has done something exceptional for the first time it is a major breakthrough. When we are all doing it, it is just routine.'

It is amazing what bad weather and an active informed mind can come up with.

Great work.

Bert

strongmanmike (Michael) · #4 03-07-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avandonk

Not a bad effort Mike. Just shows how a near perfect refractor and an ultra sensitive camera with high signal to noise can perform.

The signal in the 18" Schmidt is about nine times that of your six inch APO Mike. This means the signal to noise of your camera is about ten times better than David Malins film and enhancement by masking method.

The only parameter that matters is signal to noise!

I would try just enhancing your green data as it does not suffer as much as blue does from extinction and red from light pollution. The green data should have far better signal to noise for the really faint stuff. The atmosphere is also more transparent for green wavelengths.

When my 300mm lens grows up it wants to be as good as your six inch APO.

We used to have a saying in CSIRO 'When only one person has done something exceptional for the first time it is a major breakthrough. When we are all doing it, it is just routine.'

It is amazing what bad weather and an active informed mind can come up with.

Great work.

Bert

Cheers Bert. I didn't think I had picked this much up but a bit of processing magic and well....

...oh and it was the 48" (1.2m F2.5) UK Schmidt that David used for his version

Mike

avandonk · #5 03-07-2010, 11:24 AM

Thats even better Mike 64 times the signal to noise roughly. My memory must be failing I thought it was 18" he used.

Bert

JD2439975 (Justin) · #6 03-07-2010, 02:59 PM

Considering you're just a tad shy of 1.2m aperture & only 3 hours worth it's amazing it came out of the background noise at all.

First I've heard of M104 having a tidal stream, learn something every day.

Nice one Mike.

DavidU (Dave) · #7 03-07-2010, 03:03 PM

Incredible Mike ! Just out of interest does anyone know what Mag the tidal streams would be?

strongmanmike (Michael) · #8 03-07-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD2439975

Considering you're just a tad shy of 1.2m aperture & only 3 hours worth it's amazing it came out of the background noise at all.

First I've heard of M104 having a tidal stream, learn something every day.

Nice one Mike.

My original plan had been to do several days on this field with the hope that these faint features, I knew to be there, would be visible in a more normally processed colour shot ala my deep Cen A...buuuut the intermitent cloud plus a few new-camera system teathing issues on the first two nights made me re think this project and resulted in me losing patience sooooo 3.5 hours lum was all I bothered with. With an observatory though, or at least another dream run like the three perfect nights in a row for my Cen A from Wiruna, well!!! things could have been different

Still pretty cool though huh?

Mike

strongmanmike (Michael) · #9 03-07-2010, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidU

Incredible Mike ! Just out of interest does anyone know what Mag the tidal streams would be?

When David Malin gave his presentation at the 2007 IISAC and challenged an amateur to take an image to show the faint galaxy extensions and galactic Cirrus around around Cen A

....he mentioned that it was about 27mag/squ arc sec but I recon the faint features around M104 are fainter so I would say more like 28mag/squ arc sec in this case..?

Mike

DavidU (Dave) · #10 03-07-2010, 03:19 PM

28/sqr arc sec my goodness, email this to the camera manufacturer. They will love this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

When David Malin gave his presentation at the 2007 IISAC and challenged an amateur to take an image to show the faint galaxy extensions and galactic Cirrus around around Cen A

....he mentioned that it was about 27mag/squ arc sec but I recon the faint features around M104 are fainter so I would say more like 28mag/squ arc sec in this case..?

Mike

strongmanmike (Michael) · #11 03-07-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidU

28/sqr arc sec my goodness, email this to the camera manufacturer. They will love this.

Yes it is rather eye openning isn't it

3 hours with this CCD on a 6" telescope can go as deep on faint extended featues as a 1.2m (F2.5!!!) telescope could, using what was then cutting edge photgraphic processing too, just a generation ago.

Mike

DavidTrap (David) · #12 03-07-2010, 03:57 PM

Nice shooting Tex,

I'm beginning to realise that many of the images being produced by the high end amateur are rivalling the output from professional observatories 20+years ago...

DT

avandonk · #13 03-07-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Yes it is rather eye openning isn't it

3 hours with this CCD on a 6" telescope can go as deep on faint extended featues as a 1.2m (F2.5!!!) telescope could, using what was then cutting edge photgraphic processing too, just a generation ago.

Mike

Thats what I said!

Bert

strongmanmike (Michael) · #14 03-07-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h0ughy

Mike,

it is indeed a treat to see things like this - it gives some hope for what someone can achieve - imagine what you could get with a 12" or 20" yourself with the 6" as a giude scope

very well presented Mike!!

Cheers Dave

Yes, a robustly constructed 16" F3.6 corrected Newtonian with CF tube would still be my (still reasonably realistic) dream imaging scope

The Starfire would then be my planetary imaging scope...on it's own mount...under its own dome...next to the dome with the 16" in it..

...reasonably realistic huh?...

Mike

SkyViking (Rolf) · #15 03-07-2010, 06:53 PM

Absolutely awesome Mike, congratulations on such a spectacular capture!

It's great to see the equipment being pushed to the very edge - thats where the action is!

rally · #16 03-07-2010, 11:08 PM

Neat stuff Mike.

What is the dark bubble you have captured surrounding two brighter stars below the L shaped cluster on the far right of your image aligned with the plane of M104 (below GSC5531:1171) ?

Cheers

Rally

gary · #17 03-07-2010, 11:59 PM

Hi Mike,

Very impressive! Well done!

Best Regards

Gary

strongmanmike (Michael) · #18 04-07-2010, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rally

Neat stuff Mike.

What is the dark bubble you have captured surrounding two brighter stars below the L shaped cluster on the far right of your image aligned with the plane of M104 (below GSC5531:1171) ?

Cheers

Rally

Sorry Rally not sure what you are refering too..?

Mike

tornado33 · #19 04-07-2010, 07:22 PM

Very nice , Mike. I remember after seeing your centaurus A effort, thinking that you would go after this. Anything that has been reached with deep Schmidt places you can reach with your rig

Good idia using just luminance too, as your camera is getting the full spectrum of light, vastly exceeding the QE of schmidt plate film.
Scott

Bassnut (Fred) · #20 04-07-2010, 07:41 PM

Ahh Mike, you keep stretching the crap out of 6" pics (to great effect I might add) in a sort of crusade to prove or justify no need for or delay the need for a 16". Physics will beat you in the end my friend, imagine what this amount of effort would do with a 16" he.

I bet you crumble eventually, I sense the end game is excellerating ;-).