A Monthly DSO challenge?

[mldee (Mike)]

As a beginner who doesn't comment on others' photos, because I haven't yet posted one of my own that would compare, I was just lurking and looking at the various M20 shots tonight, and the various comments that had been made about them.

A brain 'spark' happened: I have never seen here (or in any other forum) a "Monthly DSO competition" for want of better words, whereby a reasonably accessible DSO was nominated, and folks then submitted their best attempts, to be judged on some sort of handicap (equipment, location, etc) basis, so those with a "115mm DSE special" scope with a Toucam hanging off it could compete just as much as the Mt Palomar crowd. Sort of a mini Sydney to Hobart for the IIS imaging crowd. Line honours, handicap, just for fun, all classes would be welcome, but more focused than just the "photo of the month" or such.

Why? Just for fun, but also to give novices such as myself an opportunity to compare the various equipments (and DSO) options, and results therefrom, in the imaging side of the hobby. I looked at the four M20 shots shown on IIS today, and would really like to see more comparison info, rather than just subjective "praise and comments".

Is the suggestion realistic or just one glass of wine too many?

Cheers,

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by mldee

to be judged on some sort of handicap (equipment, location, etc) basis, so those with a "115mm DSE special" scope with a Toucam hanging off it could compete just as much as the Mt Palomar crowd. Sort of a mini Sydney to Hobart for the IIS imaging crowd. Line honours, handicap, just for fun, all classes would be welcome, but more focused than just the "photo of the month" or such.Is the suggestion realistic or just one glass of wine too many?

Cheers,

Good luck

Seriously though... apart from the handicaped idea ... this could work ok and has been done before on other forums

Please don't feel that you can't post non-Gendler like images here, all images are treated equally with respect and dignity I can assure you

Mike

[mldee (Mike)]

None of my images are gender-specific! Then I read closer.......

Thanks anyway for introducing me to Robert Gendler.

I guess my 'glass of wine' comment was closest to the mark then

Cheers,

[DavidTrap (David)]

What categories / handicaps are you thinking of:

DSLR
modded DSLR
OSC CCD
mono CCD

or something based on scope/mount:

refractors <100 or >100mm
reflecting scopes <250mm or >250mm
mounts - not really sure how you'd easily categorise those...

I think the suggestion has merit, but could get a bit busy if there were too many sub categories? Might be a few one horse races...

DT

[troypiggo (Troy)]

I think that more beneficial and less likely to cause friction would be to simply change the title to "Challenge".

"Competition" implies there must be a winner. "Challenge" simply steers everyone towards the same mandate, so you can still compare against other images, but no need for the complexity of handicaps etc.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by troypiggo

I think that more beneficial and less likely to cause friction would be to simply change the title to "Challenge".

.....

Bah! PC Humbug!

[TrevorW]

Requires a panel of unbiased judges

need to take into consideration

equipment/ level of experience/ where image taken etc etc

becomes complicated

besides we already have image of the week duly adjudicated and judged by your host

[Octane (Humayun)]

This idea would never work on this forum.

Can you imagine all the tears?

H

[rally]

A difficulty that may not be apparent is the fact that these images can take a long time to acquire and sometimes just as long or even longer to process.

So in any given month it may not be possible for someone to actually complete a given image due to weather happening on the right days and personal committments etc

Most people are using data that they have aquired over long periods and adding to it as the seeing and their gear and spare time permits, and also as their processing skills develop, so this leads to a bit of a problem in terms of the competition -
- a. does a comp require that the data be acquired in that month or even that year ?
- b. is it fair to use 25 hours of data acquired last year compared to someone who has never imaged that particular target before and can only acquire say 5 hours of data ?
- c. if a. doesnt apply, how are you going to get someone who has already spent the time and effort acquiring the data to effectively discard it and reimage it (life is too short to waste valuable astro imaging time)
If a. does apply it could be quite difficult for 2 hours of LRGB to adequately compete with 15 hours of LHaRGB !

The other thing is most people tend to have their own projects happening and so they are following their own plans and ideas for trying new techniques and developing their skills based on their own progression.

People have differing gear - some have wide field instruments and others have narrow field, which may or may not suit some subjects.

I am not saying it won't work, but I think these things and others I havent thought about, need to be considered carefully otherwise the pool of entrants would dwindle to low numbers - a competition is not not a competition if there is only one or two entrants per classification.

The other thing is that this makes it a Southern Hemisphere only comp as our latitiude's targets are not visible in the Northern Hemisphere and visa versa.

Then you may have to consider all the other things that the Malin Awards have considered or been accused of not considering !
There are some threads on this forum that raise some of the concerns.

Just some thoughts.

[mldee (Mike)]

Based on the number of negative comments vs positives, I'll give it to the 'glass of wine' comment.

Thanks for the inputs anyway.

Cheers

[Shiraz (Ray)]

Naah dont give up Mike. I reckon you have identified a real issue. For example, many of us use Chinese scopes, mounts and cameras, trying to get the very best performance we can from limited gear -having occasional successes and lots of fun. But we cannot compete with the top end images that come from RCOS, AP, SBIG etc. So we dont bother to post anything. Even if a competition would be too difficult, a forum devoted to "cheap and cheerful", for users who are trying to wring the very last bit of performance from bottom end equipment might be very useful in getting a lot more of us bottom dwellers to post our less than perfect images and share ideas and enthusiasm. A competition might evolve naturally out of such a forum.
Regards

[mldee (Mike)]

Thanks for the feedback Ray. Based on that, I'll ramble on a little further, without any wine, too.

I feel there is a bit of a void for both novices and the "cheap and cheerful' crowd to easily acquire a feel for what is "bang for the buck" and reasonably achievable in equipment and software, and what comes down to good old basic skill and patience as one learns the tricks of the hobby.

This is my reasoning for having some sort of monthly DSO nominated for an image 'challenge', rather than a general "any imaging photo" approach, so that perhaps in such a forum, comparisons and questions could be readily discussed, based on one single imaging objective; to show what can be achieved (and the limitations of) various types of equipment, software and skill levels.

It's sort of informally done in the present imaging sections, but it's the lowest common denominator of a "specified DSO image" that to me would be of interest in helping improve skills, both equipment and creative, by seeing what results others can achieve on that same DSO, plus how and why.

I realise all these subjects are presently targeted in various sections of IIS. I was simply suggesting a fun way of bringing them together in an instructive and easily understandable format.

Cheers,

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

This is interesting reading for me. I don't do imaging. So, much of the discussion I can follow in an 'dispassionate' way. What I do see is that imaging is so highly technical, it would be difficult to devise a competition for 'beginners' or advanced alike. The Malin awards are crazy enough to judge.

What I do see merit in is the 'Cheap and Cheerful' idea.

Maybe a subforum in the imaging forums might be a way to go. The quality of pictures submitted in these forums would be intimidating for so many people to place their pics next to. Yet, there would be much merit in having these more 'modest' pics seen by us all. Both to build confidence and learn from.

What sets IceInSpace apart from other sites is the "respect and dignity" that Mike mentions. I do then see a place for these 'Cheap and Cheerful' pics. It would give an outlet for so many amateurs just itching to show what they have done quietly and passionately, yet are a little shy. Many others are just happy to take 'Cheap and Cheerful', as it fulfills their needs, the extent of where they like to take this and the limitations they have for a myriad of reasons. Yet every single image taken is done with the same dedication as those so-so pics done by Strongmanmike, !

The Beginners Imaging forum serves a purpose, but I don't think it is the right one for the 'Cheap and Cheerful' theme. It is there to foster technical improvements for those starting out or wanting guidance.

?

Mental.

[mldee (Mike)]

Thanks for your inputs, Mental. Yep, The "cheap and cheerful" members who are interested in gaining some more knowledge and skills are who I also see as the recipients. The existing IIS sections do a great job for what (I think) they are respectively intended for. We don't need another thread to show people how to hypertune mounts, or to adjust CCD sensors. It's already well covered, as is general imaging.

My wish is just for a more fun method of gaining better imaging knowledge and being able to compare my results to those with similar levels of equipment and skill, with some knowledge cross-fertilisation thrown in, all in one section of IIS.

I feel the "nominated DSO" approach is an important part of this, in that it ensures a level playing field for all comers. Of course there will be difficulties encountered at times by various folks; weather, obstructions, etc, but hey, that's life, and it's just a hobby. There's always next month. There's also no reason planetary imaging couldn't be included. As long as every one's imaging the same object for that month's entry.

One spin off of the nominated-object approach would also be to embed a good knowledge of the various imaged objects in the imager's skills repertoire, and to appreciate the different aspects of equipment needed for best results on the various typs of objects. This would then assist them in making future equipment purchases that better met their needs, rather than just impulse-shopping online.

Open to further C & C,

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

I too don't think we need another section on 'pimp my mount', that is adequately covered too I believe.

Yeah, a nominated DSO could quite well work for all and sundry.

Why not test the water with a new thread in DSO imageing as "DSO of the month- give us your shot!". Make the introduction clear that it is open to all levels of gear and experience. Could actually be exciting and focuses the community on something specific. This way the 15hr exposure crowd gives us the WOW factor, and the 20min crowd gives a more 'through the eyepiece' experience. Everyone gets a gernsey.

Something like this runs through the 'Observational and visual astronomy' forum with its monthly Challenge. It offers a series of targets nominated by the IIS community and asks participants to offer thier observation notes and sketches.

You might want to open nominations for the object during the Full Moon week. Then it is a true to life pulse with those who are clouded-out, oh-well next time, and others get a go. That is how the 'obs' Challenge runs. Or have a theme, with a series of 'one type of' objects, like nebulae, galaxies, wide field, etc.

Do what you can, with what you've got, and the time you have. Nothing more, nothing less. Just have a go.

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

Why not test the water with a new thread in DSO imageing as "DSO of the month- give us your shot!". Make the introduction clear that it is open to all levels of gear and experience. Could actually be exciting and focuses the community on something specific. This way the 15hr exposure crowd gives us the WOW factor, and the 20min crowd gives a more 'through the eyepiece' experience. Everyone gets a gernsey.
......
......
Do what you can, with what you've got, and the time you have. Nothing more, nothing less. Just have a go.

It's an idea that's been tried at various times before, but always ends in lack of participation for one reason or another.

Just thought I'd mention it, but you're welcome to try.

Some prior attempts.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...hlight=monthly
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...hlight=monthly
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...hlight=monthly

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Hi RB,

Then it needs one or a few people to breathe some life back into the notion. The obs' challenge also has had a time off, and it was a 14yr old member who spiked it again. It too is a modest thread, but it gives people a focus, and novices a guide as to what is up there. I don't always get to make a submission, but participation is all that matters. Somethings called 'clouds' & 'life' gets in the way, .

I'd encourage the uptake of an 'imaging challenge' again.

Someone like to get a thread going then? I'm no imager, and I'd feel awkard doing so, but for the sake of spirit, maybe start with- Eta Carina. Bright enough, large enough and detailed enough to allow a variety of focal points: the entire nebula, the Keyhole, the Homunculus nebula, its various embedded clusters, dark pilars and bok globuals. Take your pick.

[RB (Andrew)]

Sure go for it, there's no harm in trying.
Why not team up with mldee and get the ball rolling.
Like you said the Obs challange kicked off again.

[adman (Adam)]

rather than try to break it up into subcategories of scope type etc, why not expand on the cheap and cheerful idea and have the categories be based on the cost of the rig??

I would love to see the difference between the "sub-$1000" category and the "$20k +" category.

I think there would be surprises there for everyone, just how well you can do with very limited / cost-effective gear....

BUT - just thinking this through while I'm typing - how do you cost a top of the line rig that was bought 2nd hand for much cheaper than someone with the same rig who bought it new....hmmm

just a thought anyway.

Adam

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by adman

BUT - just thinking this through while I'm typing - how do you cost a top of the line rig that was bought 2nd hand for much cheaper than someone with the same rig who bought it new....hmmm

just a thought anyway.

Adam

I suppose the fairest way is to take the average of the two prices.