Gravity pioneers.

[xelasnave]

I have followed the Pioneer anomaly off and on for some time as I believe the behaviour of these craft can offer observational evidence to suggest that gravity can only work via a push system.

I lifted the text under from....
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ay_041018.html
which seems to cover enough for my purpose...

Pioneer 10 and 11 launched in 1972 and 1973. Today each is several billion miles away, heading in opposite directions out of the solar system.

The discrepancy caused by the anomaly amounts to about 248,500 miles (400,000 kilometers), or roughly the distance between Earth and the Moon. That's how much farther the probes should have traveled in their 34 years, if our understanding of gravity is correct. (The distance figure is an oversimplification of the actual measurements, but more on that in a moment.)

Scientists are quick to suggest the Pioneer anomaly, as they call it, is probably caused by the space probes themselves, perhaps emitting heat or gas. But the possibilities have been tested and modeled and penciled out, and so far they don't add up.

Which leaves open staggering possibilities that would force wholesale reprinting of all physics books:

* Invisible dark matter is tugging at the probes
* Other dimensions create small forces we don't understand
* Gravity works differently than we think

END OF TEXT

It seems the problem is not going away and the math we rely upon to determine stuff seems to fail so we have the anomaly... dark matter gets a mention and other dimensions rather than folk feeling comfortable with option three above......that gravity works different to what we think...

Why is it such a bitter pill to swallow that GR could be wrong and I guess it must be wrong if the anomaly can not be explained using it ....or if some other explaination within current understanding offerred.

Why is it so difficult to consider that gravity may not be a force relying upon "attraction" and works via "push" particularly when we can observe the behaviour of the pioneer entirely consistent with that proposition ...

why do we need invisable dark matter? I think the answer is simply "to support our current poor understanding of gravity"

A push gravity system lets us work with what we can observe and removes speculative ideas that force us to conclude some 90% of the Universe is invisable (dark stuff) and only detectable by its supposed gravitational influence on other bodies.

Given the observations I find the statement within the text...Which leaves open staggering possibilities that would force wholesale reprinting of all physics books: would seem somewhat reasonable.

SO who is into solving the problem called "the Pioneer Anomaly"

alex

[xelasnave]

So in the absence of comment I must assume that general relativity is wrong and/as no one will/can defend it ...that is no surprise given the observations (pioneer anomaly) that says it is wrong....wrong means ..it wont fit our current sums...GR gives us our current wrong sums.

Either that is correct or folks have grown tired of facing the facts that GR lets us down when we apply it to space rather than models etc ...

Observation shows an undeniable reality, the pioneer anomaly is an observed reality whereas the mind games of hypothetical lifts (or elevators) in space open opportunity to corrupt reality to fit the desired result...

I wonder how folk of the future will judge us given our desire to hold onto an idea that clearly does not hold up when we move out of our solar system (unless we invoke darl matter etc)...no doubt they will look upon us as fools who believe in the abstract rather than our observation...

and to accept that the forces of accelleration experienced in a hypothetical lift in space can lead us to a conception of how things work is rather stupid they will certainly think... to try to work out how things work based upon human experience is rather arogant if not stupid some folk may feel.

Until the poineer anomaly is explained there is no other conclusion we can arrive at other than general relativity stands as a nonsense..perhaps we should consider it is crap because it does not work .GR does not fit observation ...maybe that is unacceptable but it is that simple ..it works or it does not ..and the pioneer simply tells us that GR does not work.. if otherwise is correct GR will explain what we observe rather than what we can fancy on paper as reality.

If science demands observation fits the math then GR must bow to such a demand...as it can not do this it seems GR is wrong....it fails to meet the simple demand that its predictions can be observered as a reality that humans can witness...witness the pioneer and GR fails...

To leave the pioneer anomaly unexplained means our science is wrong....wrong...wrong ...wrong... GR is wrong.

AND given the facts and observation it appears that no one is able to save the premise of GR ....
In my humble view.


alex

[TrevorW]

Alex I believe you may be flogging a dead horse here so to speak and no one really gives a hoot either way

remember what will be will be

pondering about issues which you cannot control or are unsolvable acheives nothing

just have another beer and enjoy the stars

[Robh (Rob)]

Alex,

The evidence for GR is, if anything, increasing. The anomalies with the Pioneer craft probably have nothing to do with GR. They remain a mystery and several explanations have been proposed, from gas leakage to dark matter, modified gravity (MOND) to simply errors in measurement and recording over a long time period (30 years of data). One would be wise not to draw any rash conclusions without other corroborating evidence.

Regards, Rob.

[Nesti (Mark)]

Who said it was an issue involving GR??? There could be an unusual phenomenon associated with SR instead, like our sun's magnetic field, as well as the planets, slightly modify SR, or in the absence of such fields, SR is slightly altered, or better yet, perhaps there is no anomaly at all (like the train and tunnel analogy in SR).

In regards to GR, there's far more scientific value associated with the rings of Saturn, in that both GR and Newtonian physics cannot attribute such clean divisions between areas swept clear and areas containing ice, dust and rock.

The research dollars should be spent in areas such as these...and it is.

There are far too many variable with the probes, and the really big one, TESTABILITY; you can't test anything so far away.

[starlooker (Duc)]

So Pioneer 10 & 11 are heading in opposite directions, and both are off by 400,000 Km? If that's the case, a gas leak can be ruled out, right?

NASA could always send more probes on the same trajectory, and wait for a few decades.

[TrevorW]

Now you've all done it

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Alex I believe you may be flogging a dead horse here so to speak and no one really gives a hoot either way

remember what will be will be

pondering about issues which you cannot control or are unsolvable acheives nothing

just have another beer and enjoy the stars

Thank you for the reply Trevor.

I find the thought of flogging a dead horse or even a live one something I can not entertain but I understand your point. I do think there are folk who give a hoot... as to giving a hoot... If I were on the team at NASA who called it wrong I would be giving a hoot I suspect as such may point to a personal inadequacy rather than a fundamental error in current understanding.

For me I find the matter extremely interesting and perhaps if great minds could be encouraged to address the problem humanity may gain a better understanding upon the workings of the Universe rather than to accept our current possition that we indeed know everything and there is little point to further investigation or taking new observation into account to assess our determination of how science is describing the universe to humanity.

AND indeed what will be will be ..the anomaly may be explained within the rules we believe govern stuff or it may (as suggested in the text) lead us to further discovery...and whatever is certainly at that point "will be".

AND upon my prediction in time the the pioneer will appear to stop and then race off at some 350klms per second or what ever the speed our solar system orbits within our galaxy... years ago I posted here in iceinspace such..before the craft popped out by the way..now they slow and if what will be will be that also will be easily observed..how long before they stop..I have no idea

I am well past the point in life where achievement is relevant to me and like most old men just enjoy babbling about something that takes my fancy in the mistaken belief others may be interested.

Thanks again for your input and the opportunity to consider a reply to address the issues you raise.

I have been having another beer far to often lately and perhaps looking at the stars and pondering the universe more than is healthy but it is enjoyable and you have my agreement upon that.
Thanks again.

alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Robh

Alex,

The evidence for GR is, if anything, increasing. The anomalies with the Pioneer craft probably have nothing to do with GR. They remain a mystery and several explanations have been proposed, from gas leakage to dark matter, modified gravity (MOND) to simply errors in measurement and recording over a long time period (30 years of data). One would be wise not to draw any rash conclusions without other corroborating evidence.

Regards, Rob.

Indeed you a correct Rob there is a mass...er a heavy body.. of evidence..that has GR out in front. However if GR has no answer to this one maybe we need to consider more stuff.
I have been reading about this for a while and took the opportunity to update myself as best I could before my post...AND it seems so far we have a genuine anomaly in so far as all the ideas put forward as to radiation, gas leaks etc have been set aside.
Measurement problems seem to point more to a problem than resoolve anything but I point out the craft have not been outside the heliosphere for 30 years and suggest it is the measurements when they left the solar system that could be the only ones considered relevant..it is clear the point they "popped out" I believe and that is not that long ago... the discrepency should be measured against the distance travelled since they left the solar system I would think.
I dont buy MOND and I dont buy dark matter given push has no place for either in its universe

I could be wise but I think it is a quality that I missed and so I jump to the conclusion that given I thought such would happen and it did that I was at least correct in predicting the behaviour as I would suspect of the craft if out there there was more push than within the solar system...still as to more evidence I can not provide any but as we are dealing with an anomaly guessing cant be all bad.

Thanks for your input and wise words.

alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Nesti

Who said it was an issue involving GR??? There could be an unusual phenomenon associated with SR instead, like our sun's magnetic field, as well as the planets, slightly modify SR, or in the absence of such fields, SR is slightly altered, or better yet, perhaps there is no anomaly at all (like the train and tunnel analogy in SR).

In regards to GR, there's far more scientific value associated with the rings of Saturn, in that both GR and Newtonian physics cannot attribute such clean divisions between areas swept clear and areas containing ice, dust and rock.

The research dollars should be spent in areas such as these...and it is.

There are far too many variable with the probes, and the really big one, TESTABILITY; you can't test anything so far away.

Mark I can not disagree with anything you say but it do think the matter is worthy of discussion and dare I say speculation.

alex

[Barrykgerdes]

There are a couple of very important things you need to remember about gravity. The rest will have no consquence to us simpltons

Fluids: the lightest will float to the top and the heaviest will sink to the bottom. Fluids will also push solids that are less dense to a place of equilibrium. Don't go swimming with with lead in your pockets.

Solids; all you need to remember here is that a house brick or similar dropped from 1 metre on to your toe will hurt much more than an empty cardboard box of the same dimensions.

I can probbable apply this anology to another forum item on the speed of telescope mirrors a 10" F20 mirror dropped from 20 metres will hit the groud with the same speed as an 10" F2.4 mirror dropped from the same height and will do about the same amount of damage.

Barry

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by starlooker

So Pioneer 10 & 11 are heading in opposite directions, and both are off by 400,000 Km? If that's the case, a gas leak can be ruled out, right?

NASA could always send more probes on the same trajectory, and wait for a few decades.

Gas has been ruled out from what I have read.. and there is nothing that so far comes to solve the anomaly.

I think the craft will slow more and more and finally appear to us to stop ..they will become "stuck" and our solar system will continue in its orbit... when ? long after we are dead no doubt.

Yes more probes in fact more space research..better than spending money on war I feel and still satisfies the demands of a capatalist economy... we need consumption and indeed waste or we can not grow...strange but so far that seems the way it is.

alex