The Dark Matter hunt continues

xelasnave · #1 17-02-2008, 05:59 PM

I suspect there are others who enjoy the news about the dark matter hunt and although a press or news release here it a link for those who care.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0214144535.htm

alex

xelasnave · #2 17-02-2008, 06:05 PM

Oh I had to add this..simply because I find it amusing as so much of this stuff is really..er and very interesting may I say

....check the last paragraph

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0930094827.htm

alex

xelasnave · #3 17-02-2008, 06:29 PM

And this is for those who cant put this stuff down and want more

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1130075008.htm

I think that the refernce to particles popping into and out of existence and the premise is flawed

... from what I have read this is the development of a math fiction ..shortly the way I read this stuff behind this notion is the particles are there all the time but until observaed treated as they do not exist and hence the corruption of the reality...

and I may have it wrong and will not be upset if anyone says so...what would I know anyways

but as a side issue on that point I think it was this approach that gave the inflation idea some momentum... mmm thats not a pun is it..is not meant to be anyways.

alex

xelasnave · #4 17-02-2008, 06:30 PM

I had in mind this section of the text.......

The most conventional explanation is that dark energy is some kind of "cosmological constant" that arises from empty space not being empty, but having an energy as elementary particles pop in and out of existence.

alex

coldspace · #5 17-02-2008, 10:18 PM

Thanks for that Alex,

I too am very much into the science side of our hobby, it just keeps my mind thinking. I like the bit about how fast dark matter falls, sounds like testing out the old apple falling out of the tree as done by Newton to discover gravity, maybe the inhabitants of the dark matter planet could see if the toast that they cooked for breakfast and then falls off the side of the kitchen table would land butter side up,only problem on the dark matter planet both sides of the toast would be burnt black.

on a more serious note thanks for the link to these sites.

Matt.

xelasnave · #6 18-02-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldspace

Thanks for that Alex,

I too am very much into the science side of our hobby, it just keeps my mind thinking. I like the bit about how fast dark matter falls, sounds like testing out the old apple falling out of the tree as done by Newton to discover gravity, maybe the inhabitants of the dark matter planet could see if the toast that they cooked for breakfast and then falls off the side of the kitchen table would land butter side up,only problem on the dark matter planet both sides of the toast would be burnt black.

on a more serious note thanks for the link to these sites.

Matt.

Hi Matt out of respect for the real scientists here and elsewhere I call any of my thoughts mere philosophy

... maybe less arguements with philosophy than with science

..if you keep the religion out of the philosophy that is

alex

coldspace · #7 18-02-2008, 09:56 PM

Sorry if I offended you Alex or any other real scientists or should I say career scientists. Just trying to have a bit of fun after you pointed out the dark matter falling of the table. I was just refering to the Myth busters show experiment with the toast and table. Anyway all good.

Matt.

xelasnave · #8 18-02-2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldspace

Sorry if I offended you Alex or any other real scientists or should I say career scientists. Just trying to have a bit of fun after you pointed out the dark matter falling of the table. I was just refering to the Myth busters show experiment with the toast and table. Anyway all good.

Matt.

Mate you did not offend me

I havent read what I said but dont take me seriously ..when I sound my most serious it is usaully my weird sence of humour...

If you cant have a joke whats left

.... and it is not easy to offend me ..hit me in the head with a brick and I will be worried about what is upseting you..a very thick hide to match the thick skull.

I have some different ideas that has a real scientist puling their hair... it is my respect for them that I dont pretend to be a scientist...for I am not ... I am a Morosophicist

... ask me if you dont get the joke.

thanks for your concern but all is cool always is

.
alex

coldspace · #9 18-02-2008, 10:44 PM

Great to here mate, yeah I took it the wrong way just thought when you said the real scientists it was a crack at me, anyway how thick is your head must be thicker than mine.

Cheers Matt.

P.S. I found some more links on the hubble latest discoveries I will post them for all to view.

xelasnave · #10 18-02-2008, 10:56 PM

Also I dont really buy the Dark Matter thing I reckon they are wrong

..dead wrong, so wrong it hurts

...but I love to read about it so I can go off about it

...weird eh

...

I think it is a mtyh to be honest but that is my philosophy... I cant argue the toss scientifically on anything and it is not fair to annoy people trying to understand stuff and they know you miss a simple point

... its like someone trying to tell me how to sell real estate and they are off the street green as...
How do you tell them there is more to it than just riding is a flash car selling each house you visit...it is not really like that..it is hard work for a start.

and I can be a little impertinant as well...

So there you go
alex

DARKMATTER · #11 20-02-2008, 06:17 PM

Ahem!

Ahhh? Present?

lol

xelasnave · #12 20-02-2008, 10:30 PM

I have been cruel really... because these folk trying to work out the problems are alone... they have a problem before them..they have come up with one answer..dark stuff from start to finish...

and the rest of us sit back and say fair enough...

rather than trying to contribute...

I mean when we get to a situation where we have to invent matter that can not be seen does not that tell us these folk need help....

I bet they were surprised no one stepped forward and said ..no I have a more reasonable idea than your dark matter.. but no one has come up with anything better...so dark matter is the best we have...how sadly tragic...

the Universe can only be understood by resort to what one would call magic and mystery... most of what is real we can not see...yes indeed... it sounds unbelievable because it is unbelievable..

so as we can see those trying to understand are really out of ideas it is up to us to come up with something that is reasonable... who will rise to the occasion and provide a better view..

there is no one capable of doing the job so now is the time to step up folks.

help those who need help in finding direction..for humanity..for humanity lift us from the dark ages ...dark matter dark energy and black holes... lets move past the mystery... if nothing else stop calling stuff not understood scientifically ..dark or black..such degrades those involved....and hints of times in our history we can not be proud of.........it is a good day when you can end with a preposition

alex

Zuts · #13 20-02-2008, 10:43 PM

Would it make you happier if we called it fairy matter. Like in we cant see it but it would be great if it was actually there

When I was in first year uni, someone did a geometric illustration (not proof) of special relativity time dilation. The only assumption was that the speed of light was a constant. I was stunned, there in clear understandable view was an illustration of how time passes at different rates for bodies (including people) in relative motion.

When Einstein thought of this, the understanding of anyone who cared to listen would have been as clear. However it could not be proved. These days of course there are many ways of proving it and the dilation can actually be easily measured.

Things which seem impossible at one stage of history have a habit of becoming commonplace in another and I think the same will happen with dark matter. Another example is antimatter, once a theoretical substance and these days manufactured by the milligram.

Paul

xelasnave · #14 20-02-2008, 11:10 PM

Yes Paul we know not what the future holds for us...

I have no problem with that at all...

but honestly dark matter... why not go back to the drawing board and consider why we are inventing such stuff... there is a determination that our current belief in general relativity will not lead us astray..yet the longer we entertain the universe and all it sets out for us the more we are forced to entertain stuff that is in the region of mystery...

I dont care what the sums say ..it does not add up...

As to time dialation it is not proved as one would prove the acceptability of a new drug..in so far as there are not many experiments ..repeated so as to relieve the sceptical person that a quick fix has been enlisted...or simply put I dont buy it when a lot of sums are followed by only a few experiments ...

and of course that may not be my real position on the matter just pointing out an inadequacy in the proof offerred

.
alex

xelasnave · #15 20-02-2008, 11:16 PM

If my reply seems out of context ..if it is that way.. can I confess this.. I have not been on the job..rushing past the lap top .. reading this reading that..and jumping in with little time to think thru the issues.. so If I am all over the place that is why...but I am polishing my eq 6 gears... that is where my mind it...sorry for that lack of application to discussion

alex

bojan · #16 22-02-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Y

As to time dialation it is not proved as one would prove the acceptability of a new drug..in so far as there are not many experiments ..repeated so as to relieve the sceptical person that a quick fix has been enlisted...or simply put I dont buy it when a lot of sums are followed by only a few experiments ...

alex

Alex,
Every time you use your GPS, you have time dilatation experiment conducted and a proof is on the screen that Dr A. was right.

bojan · #17 22-02-2008, 09:42 AM

As far as dark matter is concerned..
What is bugging you probably is that everybody says it can not be seen... I agree, the whole thing is a bit mystified...
Would it help if we accept that it is only not seen yet, but its gravity effects which are measured definitely show it really exist?

xelasnave · #18 23-02-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bojan

Alex,
Every time you use your GPS, you have time dilatation experiment conducted and a proof is on the screen that Dr A. was right.

Thanks Bojan..that has been put to me before and I forgot about it being offerred as hard evidence... I forgot to follow up, simply forgot, but I will try and work out how it fits in in a GPS......... I expect the speed of light when working out positions needs to be taken into account for position fixing because of the lag in transmissions... is that what they mean... anywyas I will try and track that down so I can see a working example of the theory..a practical application helps me understnad things better.

I imagine positioning would be a 4d estimate because of the time it takes for the sat to say where it is by the time the ground gets that the sat has moved on...anywyas I dont know and will look it up.

The dark matter thing frustrates me for sure.. I think it is a cop out really... and the attemps to infer its existence get to me... I just think there must be a better explaination ... and I know one can show it exists by "its" influence on sourounding matter... that is why it is there in the first place ..to explain the apparent gravitational influence of matter which must be there because if it wasnt we would not have the gravitational effects we observe... because we need matter in our sums.

The sums demand that it (dark matter)must be there because gravity is vieved as a relationship between mass..an attraction thing..

And we need the dark matter outside the galaxy so it beats me why they thought brown dwarfs or any other galactic body was relevent...the more matter you find in the galaxy only means you have to add 50 /60 % more matter outside... anyways any help you can give is always appreciated... my mind is never made up notwithsatnding I have definite views on some things.

BUt how unfortunate that I am so interested in this stuff and not foot ball say...

AND as to Dr A it must never sound like it but he is one of my heros..a role model...he is where I get my humility from

...I never though it was a good trait in a human until I met him...and I reckon he is right..his cosmological constant is what got me first thinking of push gravity.. I worked it up from that really..I never knew it was an old idea going back to Newton's times...

alex

xelasnave · #19 23-02-2008, 10:56 PM

Re time dilation and GPS this is a site which explains it simply for any who are in the darklike me...

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/...Unit5/gps.html

This just a snip from the page ....

Because an observer on the ground sees the satellites in motion relative to them, Special Relativity predicts that we should see their clocks ticking more slowly (see the Special Relativity lecture). Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion.

Further, the satellites are in orbits high above the Earth, where the curvature of spacetime due to the Earth's mass is less than it is at the Earth's surface. A prediction of General Relativity is that clocks closer to a massive object will seem to tick more slowly than those located further away (see the Black Holes lecture). As such, when viewed from the surface of the Earth, the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground. A calculation using General Relativity predicts that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day.

...............

So the first prediction of special realativity from above.........
we should see the sat clocks ticking slower than those on the ground.
and the second....
the on board clocks should fall behind those on the ground...
The General Relativity predicts...
the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground...and that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day...

What am I missing which theory do we believe or is special relativity dealing with one thing and General relativity dealing with another... one says slower and the other says faster... I am confused.

alex

xelasnave · #20 23-02-2008, 11:00 PM

So is it this..the speed of the craft makes the clocks "appear" slower (special relativity) and the bend of space time being lesser the further out you go has them actually appearing faster (general relativity)...

I can not figure it so far seems like an each way bet????

alex