The price of petrol

[xelasnave]

Surprise surprise..the price of petrol seems to have gone up and according to investigation there is no price fixing that can be established..once we had the beer unions to hold us to ransom at Chrismas..now we have them under control a greater evil has emerged it seems.

The hypocracy of our governemnt sickens me..they get the major share of petrol revenue and must be very happy when the price goes up...

The Government is so concerned about allowing monopolies to exist in our economy yet some how the monopoly created by obvious price fixing goes on ...

Forgeting Christmas just for a moment, is it not funny that the price of petrol goes up to coincide with folk getting their pay checks (week end) and their need to have petrol for their weekend activity.

And when we have news that some country is under threat of war from the US the price of oil goes up..and to add insult the price is always quoted for the price of oil..in the price of West Texas crude... why do I sence a market manipulation... I know I am a crack pot seeing evil in the simplest of things... but I often wonder..is it just me who thinks we are constantly being duped...


And the man who has the responsibility of stopping all these transparent market fixing practises seems to be ineffectual saying... there is no evidence of price control... mind you he has sent an strong letter asking the petrol companies and two of the super market chains to "please explain" so you can bet that has the petrol companies trembling in their boots.

We need to tax fuel the way we do to insulate our country against the depletion of world fuel stocks ... convenient approach to support the security of the Governments take isnt it..

So this is something that ticks me off.. as does the cloud cover..but the cloud cover will pass..the inability of Governemnt to oversee fairness however will remain.

alex

[Dujon]

Settle down, Alex. Last time I looked motorists in England were paying around the equivalent of AUD 2.30 per litre. I'm not saying we are doing well but we sure as heck aren't hurting like them.

Perhaps some of our foreign correspondents would like to chip in with the price of fuel in their countries?

[cahullian]

John
Don't forget we can drive farther for a litre of milk than the poms will drive for their summer holidays. I'm sick of getting a $8.00 tax break and the very next week petrol goes up 15c a litre. Then milk and vegies goes up and my $8.00 gain turns into a $15.00 loss.
Keep up the good work Alex I agree with you totally.

Gazz

[Ric]

That's so true Gazz, from the farm to the first service station is a 40km round trip if I forget the milk. It pays to keep some powdered cow in the cupboard for us.

Cheers

[Ingo]

I don't know why gas has gone up so much, it's not like the United States isn't in control of Iraq and all their oil. The world needs to take action and make sure Ron Paul gets in office in 2008, otherwise gas (petrol in Australian ) will keep rising.

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Ingo

I don't know why gas has gone up so much, it's not like the United States isn't in control of Iraq and all their oil. The world needs to take action and make sure Ron Paul gets in office in 2008, otherwise gas (petrol in Australian ) will keep rising.

1. in Australia we call it petrol, not gas.

2. the Australian price of petrol is determined by the world parity price out of Singapore; if this goes up so does our bowser price. This price is determined by supply and demand and only by supply and demand.

3. The US is not in control of Iraq and all its oil - Iraq has a sovereign government and Iraqi oil is sold by their Ministry of Petroleum into the world market.

4. Ron Paul, or any other US President, will have very little influence on the international price of oil, which is determined by independent markets. The US can influence the price through their strategic reserve stock, but are unwilling to do so as this stock is kept for good strategic reasons.

5. The international price of petroleum is influence by supply (through OPEC) and demand (eg northern winter demand for heating oil).

A short history is that in September US crude (WTI) reached a new high of $80.36 a barrel. Multiple factors caused this high price. OPEC announced an output increase less than expected, US reserve stocks fell lower than predicted, and six pipelines were attacked by a leftist group in Mexico. In October, crude rose to a new record of $87.97 on the news that non-OPEC oil producers were expected to reduce daily output by approximately 110,000 barrels. Later in October crude rose to $90.02 per barrel due to ongoing tensions in eastern Turkey and the reducing strength of the US dollar. By the end of October, when an expected increase of 100,000 barrels in US oil stockpiles turned out to be a 3.9 million barrel fall pushed oil prices to another new record of $96.24. Prices continued to rise to a peak of $98.62 on November 7 before starting to fall. This illustrates that there are many factors influencing the world price.

However most people are more concerned about the pump price. There has been a government enquiry into petrol prices by every state government about every 10 years since the 1970's, all trying to prove a petrol price conspiracy. They all failed to do so, which is why I don't think that there has been an enquiry into petrol prices for maybe the last 10 years.

The local pump price is determined purely by supply and demand, so when demand is high (weekends, monday mornings, easter, christmas, pension pay day) the price is higher. Simple really. Buy midweek.

[UpsizeThis]

I deliver pizzas. Don't get me started on petrol prices, and the cost of living.

[timelord (Al)]

It seems that any excuse for increasing the cost of fuel is valid not long ago the threat of a cyclone in the gulf of Mexico was enough to push prices up--just a threat mind, next it will be some one catching the flu in Saudi Arabia or someone farting in Iraq that will push oil prices up

[CoombellKid]

Originally Posted by Ric

That's so true Gazz, from the farm to the first service station is a 40km round trip if I forget the milk. It pays to keep some powdered cow in the cupboard for us.

Cheers

I agree with you guy's and Alex, and it becomes tuffer out in the bush where
it usually 10cents dearer than in the cities. Last year when Sydney was
whinging about the price of fuel hitting $1.40 I think from memory ours
hit $1.49 and stayed there long after the world and city price had settled
back down, I'm talking several months. They later found that it was the petrol
stations ripping people off on the north coast. It was costing me $70 per week
extra just the get my son to preschool 3 days a weeks. Now we only go to
town when you need to and do everything you need to at that time. There's
no pop down to the shops. Long life milk is a good thing, tabbacco without
tally ho's is a bad thing.

regards,CS

[xelasnave]

Well the point I was trying to make is the ineffectual intervention that our Governments conduct in dealing with this matter.

The "body" responsible to determine what is apparent to even a casual onlooker does nothing other than make noises as if it is doing something and clearly it does nothing other than wring its hands.

Excuses instead of action.

There is little support given by the Government, and more important no political will,....one can assume this as I have never noticed any bite marks on any of the parties who have some control on the pump price... lots of talk when appropriate but the price still seems to follow a course that suggests exploitation of a captive market.

One wonders why if parity comes from the price set in Singapore why news reports always quote the price of a barrel of West Texas Crude...

Now who do I think of when I hear West Texas???
I can not recall ever hearing ..the price of a barrel of oil in Singapore is such and such..

Simply removing the double taxation on petrol would see some relief..after all having paid the excise we still pay GST..I can handle the concept of tax but a tax on a tax seems greedy even for the Government.

Can anyone put me straight and tell me that I an wrong when I say that approximately half the price at the pump is tax??? Is there someone who can be precise and identify the exact proportion? or am I so close to the mark that the difference between my perception and the truth is irrelevant.

I have been lead to believe the price of a barrel of oil contains a 20% component that has to do with esentially "world fear" and of course this says merely that traders are capitalising simply by moving their money from gold to oil and back again...why do we need "traders" to inflate the price of a commodity that will never be left sitting on the shelf.

The concept of supply and demand like so many "economic" terms relates to concepts written about in text books...supply and demand is something that takes place in a "free" market where it is the "free market" that determines price ..the market in those text books consists of suppliers and buyers on equal footing..the main component is the ability of the buyer to chose an alternative..as there is no alternative to petrol why talk nonsence and say what we have is a text book "supply and demand" theory playing out its part in the real world...

so it is nonsense to use the term "market" where at the top you have traders who "trade" they only respond to what they expect the market may do..they only respond to the concept of..what will the market stand..or put bluntly how much can we charge and get away with it...one would not have to be too bright to realise that one has a captive market when it comes to oil and that you will never get caught out holding too much supply...

the economic principles that we read about in our text books on economices are simply principles that would opperate in a free market...as we do not have a free market why even think for a moment "supply and demand" principles have any bearing upon each other..supply and demand in this context really means to "them" what can we get away with.... it is a case of folk using terms that emote a feeling that justice prevails when of course it does not.

The Government is bent on seeing "competition" in the telecomunications industry yet sits back and does nothing to present a similar approach with petrol.

The fact that super markets can offer a 4 cent discount means the Government has abdicated at least that much of price control...and allowing such a practice by super markets is not in the spirit of reducing monopolies it is in keeping with anti competition...so I claim the Governement is indulging in hypocracy.

A little relief would be to stop taxing it twice... remove GST...so instead of paying $50 dollars to top up your tank you would be paying only $45 (approx)...further relief in reducing tax could be considered given the high proportion of the pump price is indeed for revenue...

I dont care what the prices are in the UK..that is their problem..and never will I accept that because something is that way overseas that we much follow the path they have set for themselves...

AND who in the petrol industry are doing it tuff...I think the profits achieved by all involved suggest it is simply a matter of a captive market being exploited because they are the victims of a monopoly environment one in which sadly our Government is one of the main players.

The Government is always concerned with inflation well ask yourself how the price of fuel impacts upon the cost of production... but they find that there is a better way to manage inflation..fiscal policy...sounds so neat doesnt it...but all that means is they let the lenders charge a higher rent on their money to send a marginal business to the list of workers to put some poor devil out of work...and all your nice economic rationalism wont change the reality of what increases in interest rates does to a work force.

It comes from what they call in the text books...the Optimum unemployement policy..this is an economic approach where it is predetermined how many one needs to keep out of work so the rest can be comfortable...

The current situation is unjust and those who have it within their power to act sit on their hands.
alex

[mdgodf (Mark)]

The only way to get cheaper fuel is not to buy it; low demand will result in a lower price. What's working against us is that supply is finite; we (society) love to travel; we don't mind choking on the pollution and don't much care about the future. perhaps it should cost more then it does?

[CoombellKid]

Originally Posted by mdgodf

The only way to get cheaper fuel is not to buy it; low demand will result in a lower price. What's working against us is that supply is finite; we (society) love to travel; we don't mind choking on the pollution and don't much care about the future. perhaps it should cost more then it does?

Do what I do, only buy your fuel from independants. There was an email
going around last year that suggested people stop buying from a particular
company for a couple of weeks then swap to another for a couple of weeks.
This would certainly rattle a few cages but would need cooperation of
many petrol buying folks.

No I dont think it should cost more than it does, especially when oil
companies did everthing they could for years to stiffle alternatives from
entering the market, I think they should be held accountable. I love the
way governemnts and these big companies say it's is the users fault.

regards,CS

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by mdgodf

The only way to get cheaper fuel is not to buy it; low demand will result in a lower price. What's working against us is that supply is finite; we (society) love to travel; we don't mind choking on the pollution and don't much care about the future. perhaps it should cost more then it does?

Yes Mark with a finite supply one wonders why we tolerate the waste associated with car racing etc but until those folk stop wasting it you wont see me supporting a higher price.
alex

[CoombellKid]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Yes Mark with a finite supply one wonders why we tolerate the waste associated with car racing etc but until those folk stop wasting it you wont see me supporting a higher price.
alex

I think you can place Airline companies up there too

regards,CS

[acropolite (Phil)]

Well the point I was trying to make is the ineffectual intervention that our Governments conduct in dealing with this matter

The longer and harder you look at government, the more you'll come to the realisation that they rarely, if ever, do anything. Most initiatives are aimed at placating the punters, at the same time as being as innefective as possible so as not to offend the real power brokers (big business).

Want some examples, the Tasmanian Government is setting up an EPA after just approving construction of the mother of all polluters, a green wood waste power station attached to a massively polluting pulp mill (both Federal political parties jumped in to bed to approve this project without any proper environmental assesment).

Take this a step further. the powers the ACCC have regarding misleading advertising is a god example, the proponents of this project are running television ads, claiming the mill will produce "clean Green Power", why wasn't the advertising shut down.

Our PM talks big on CO2 reduction yet this monster will produce 800 times more CO2 than all the motor vehicles on our Tasmanian roads per annum.

Federal Labour are allowing an expansion of Uranium mining, do a bit of research on the uranium mining (google Uranium mining problems) and extraction cycle, you'll find there are serious environmental issues with just digging the stuff out of the ground.

I'm sure that if you think about it there are many more examples where this is happening.

[danielsun]

Leading up to the election I do not recall not a peep from either party mention any sort of tax relief on fuel.

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

we once had a rule that said petrol stations couldn't change their price until they received a new delivery

i say bring it back -

as for futures trading - just another way for the RICH to get RICHER
a middle man we can all do without

and a little pearl of wisdom

" if you want something done about it - do something about it "

geoff

[xelasnave]

Phil sadly secretly I know what you say is true about the reality of the world...still like many kids I grew up going to Sunday school being taught about the decency that was expected of good humans... I believed the bad guys were the ones that the cops were after...well now I have more respect for a robber than many CEO's as at least in the robber relationship they tell tyou the truth they are there to steal your cash.. not so with many CEo's with the same intent..robbers go to gaol CEO go overseas on holiday... I lived for a long time in that make believe world thinking that as the Governements openned for business with a prayer and referring to God etc that somehow decency was part of our system...

it is not I find...

I dont know that there is much I can do but I love to complain simply to show I dont fall for the crap I was raised on... funny I can not get the urge to be decent out of my system however or the belief that one should love thy fellow man..clearly there are very few of us who care about doing the right thing if it cuts across the flow of cash.

I could not believe that at the Bali thing folk from nations like ours had the gaul to say that the poor hosts were basically to blame for the GW thing as they were cutting down their trees ...stop doing that so we can go on our greedy ways..hypocritic sadly..mind you I dont like to see their forrests going but it is this do as we say not do as we do that ticks me off.

As to the Green power plant I have not looked into it but you can bet it turns on a tax subsidy that simply is a method of getting money out to those who need no more of it... like the tree planting scam..cut down a diverse forrest, evict the creatures and plant trees for the paper to supply the paperless society which perhaps is still coming maybe. Tells the masses it is to save the planet not to get huge tax concessions to vested interests..
I believe that much of the Global Warming thing is simply to soften the masses to accept neuclear power.remember John Howard..one breath..we must accept the planet is heating..braw another breather ..we must consider nueclear power.. what crap then from considering to a list of places where they were to go.. our people would not have accepted that if not for the continual softening process that was going on and on at that time.. is it so good for the planet dont you know.. so safe and will save the barrier reef from drowning.there was a marine biologist on the radio saying go neuclear and save the reef..and because she was a scientist..bought and paid for I suspect..folk were inclined to think she had our best interests at heart..who paid her wages I wonder as I suspect it was their best interests she had at heart.. what lies.. the barrier reef has been around for millions of years and survived world temps much hotter than they predict... how nasty to use such emotive propagandah...

so you change your light bulbs and save the reef now whilst those like Gore travel by jet and limo...

Daniel I wonder why no one mentioned it I guess they were simply too busy thinking of all the other good things they could do for us... I have never witnessed such pork barreling and sadly the public respond best to that...

is their another planet out there that runs on need and not on greed.

Geoff I agree with your approach... I try in my own little way to remind folk of the wool that they try to look thru each day.. I am not pressured by so much that many have to meet each day to survive and I stand back and listen to the spin that is fed to us daily..it is so transparent... but if you are late for work, running to pay the bills you can miss the subtle manipulation that we are subjected to each and every day.

So personally I find it satisfying to protest about what I think is wrong..whether anyone cares I do not know but it comforts me to think they are not conning me and given the others here who say similar I find that good also.. but my reality is I am an old man, bitter that I can not do anything to make the world like the one I believed we had..the one I learnt about in Sunday school...the one my teachers said I would go out to contribute to one day...

the bible lists the negative emotions to avoid and that list seems to be the list of must have attributes for the modern world it seems.

But personally I am very happy that I no longer am taken in by the crap...you know whne the Vietnam war was on I believed the crap we were fed and would have given my life away on their lies..and nothing has really changed as lies still hide the motives of the Wars we find ourselves in..think of the poor young folk who believe they are fighting for good when in fact they are simply pawns in a game of greed.

Merry Chrismas everyone be good be happy and be informed as best you can.
alex