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Old 16-12-2019, 04:48 PM
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Merlin66 (Ken)
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Ignition of paper using lenses??

OK, we've all heard about the dead ants resulting from youthful use of magnifying glasses....
My issue at the moment (!) is trying to determine when paper when subjected to a focused solar beam (i.e. from a telescope objective) will burst into flames.

As you probably know I build and use solar telescopes...some solar observers are keen to mention that various telescopes/ filters can cause paper held at the focus to smoulder (never seems to burst into flame though??!).
Seeing this sort of thing happen puts doubt in their mind as to the safety of solar telescopes.

There's a critical ignition temperature for paper -around 246 deg C - at this temperature the paper will ignite.
Knowing the solar irradiation is 1000W/m^2 - what sized objective (this determines the input power - solar irradiation * area of the objective), what focal length (this determines the solar image area = 1/100 the focal length)
would give sufficient Heat Flux to ignite paper, and how long would it take??
Any ERF filters etc would reduce the power throughput...

I found the only "auto ignition" formula was based on work done on the ignition of wood products :
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rnal_heat_flux

and the formula on page 38 gets bandied around as the one to use..
Unfortunately it doesn't work!!
(According to this formula a piece of paper lying in sunshine will burst into flames after 54 min!!!! -Obviously not true)
Has anyone got any creditable information/ knowledge/ documentation on the ignition of paper in a focused solar beam???

The attached spreadsheet image shows some of the factors I've been looking at.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (Solar ignition_no DERF_01.JPG)
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Old 16-12-2019, 05:05 PM
inline_online (Dan)
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While I can't assist with quantitative analyses, I can give personal feedback.

Many years ago, I had a 10" Meade Starfinder with a Thousand oaks full aperture solar filter. During a solar observing session I got curious as to what would happen to corrugated cardboard if I took off the filter and held the cardboard in front of the eyepiece.

Within a few seconds the cardboard was black and smouldering and within a few more, it was on fire.

That hit home more than any warning in a book about not looking through an unfiltered scope at the Sun.
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Old 16-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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Merlin66 (Ken)
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Yeah,
I’d think a 10” f5 would give a Heat Flux at focus to ignite paper...
Be thankful the secondary withstood the energy loading
Ken
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Old 16-12-2019, 06:56 PM
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From personal tests many many years ago when seeing up an 8" for solar a solar eclipse...
A 4" f/6 will ignite paper easily. In an 8" f/6.7, a filing card explodes into flame with an audible pop.

Never mind a 10" !

Be very careful with large scopes near the sun for several reasons:

The concentrated beam from a primary mirror will inevitably strike internal surfaces such as the secondary mirror cell, vanes, the interior of the tube wall, and the focuser. If you are careless this is quite capable of charring paint, melting plastic and igniting flammable parts - wood, epoxy (carbon fibre tubes) and cardboard (sonotube) will be charred or ignited. Metal parts will survive, but black paint will not. If the vanes of the spider were soldered, its quite likely the solder will melt in the beam.

Attempting to put that amount of energy through eyepieces can damage the coatings permanently. Eyepieces with cemented elements should not be used - the cement may boil, causing the lenses to come apart or worse, split. Secondly the glass will get very hot and expand - make sure they are quite loose in the cells because if tight, differential expansion between the glass and cell may well cause the glass elements to fracture.

For the eclipse I made a big oversize Ramsden eyepiece (two elements airspaced) to project the sun from the 8" onto a screen so many could watch the partial phase of the eclipse safely. The big scope provided a very nice big bright image.

Last edited by Wavytone; 16-12-2019 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 16-12-2019, 06:58 PM
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From pure feeling I would say f/ number is prime factor here, because it determines the energy flux (or brightness) of the Sun's image.

Size of the hot spot (focal length) is also important, because for flame to be self-sustainable there must be enough smoke to burn. Air temperature will be tertiary factor....
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Old 16-12-2019, 07:03 PM
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Ok, guys I accept there is plenty of anecdotal evidence ...by how do I quantify the parameters????
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Old 16-12-2019, 07:10 PM
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I would use temperature controlled soldering iron to determine the ignition temperature.
Then I would use thermometer to gauge the temperature of the Sun's disk.. on black paper.

Perhaps this is can help you to correlate the actual measurements with theory?
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Old 16-12-2019, 07:16 PM
Wavytone
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Bojan solar furnaces routinely exceed 2,200 degrees so to be honest I'd be careful putting any thermometer in the image from a sizeable mirror.

Ken - a significant aspect is the total energy focussed in the spot. An all-reflecting system with aluminium first surface mirrors will focus everything from the far IR into the UV. Lenses on the other hand don't transmit so well in UV or IR and the chromatic issues mean the heat isn't all that well focussed as it is in a reflector.

Bojan is right in that f/ratio plays a role, but a simpler view is this:

- calculate the total incoming energy (entering the scope primary aperture) in watts, full spectrum;
- calculate the size of the solar image;
- calculate the energy density at the image (in watts per square cm).
- allow for thermal losses and inefficiencies, probably 50%.

Last edited by Wavytone; 16-12-2019 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 16-12-2019, 07:30 PM
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One critical factor you are missing, Ken, is the emissivity of the paper. Actually, it's more complex than that, you need to apply the absorption spectra for the paper to the solar spectra ex the scope to calculate the power absorbed by the paper.


Keep in mind that most glasses don't transmit IR too well (the basis of a glass type green house) and white paper by definition should reflect a large portion of the visible spectra.


White paper is largely coloured by kaolin clay (along with bleaching) if that's any help determining the spectra to use. Different colour papers will ignite at the same temperature but will achieve that temperature are different rates due to their absorption spectrum.


It should be right up your alley!


Al.
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Old 16-12-2019, 07:39 PM
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Merlin66 (Ken)
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Guys,
Thanks for the comments...

The ignition temperature is well established, no debate there.
I’ve already taken into account the UV / visual/ IR distribution of the input energy.
We know the input power, as per the example, 18W...
We know the size of the solar image, hence the Heat Flux at the focus.
What we need to know is the interaction of this Heat Flux with paper, and how long it takes to raise the temperature to 246 deg C.
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Old 16-12-2019, 10:28 PM
Wavytone
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Ok...

Let's assume paper density is 100g per square metre.
Image area = 0.000177 sq.m
Mass of paper in the solar image 0.0177g, ie 0.0000177 kg
Specific heat of paper 1336 J/kg/C
Temperature rise required dT = 226 degrees
Joules required therefore J = 5.3 Joules
Heat flux over the solar image H = 17.7 W

A Joule is a watt-second so the time to reach ignition temp = J/H = 0.3 seconds, which I suspect is optimistic (ie too quick) from what I saw with 4" and 8" mirrors producing much smaller images.

Beyond what Al suggested there are more issues -
- paper isn’t opaque - a fair bit of the energy will escape out the back;
- atmospheric losses (there is huge difference between solar noon on a clear midsummer day, vs the crap sky we have at the moment - which is struggling to warm a black metal surface),
- moisture content of the paper (it takes a lot of heat to drive off water), and also
- the transition from white paper through charring to ignition. Once that change begins it becomes carbon and absorbs the energy quickly.

I have a magnifying glass, a 70mm f/6.7 refractor, 6" f/15 Maksutov, and 10" f/12 Mak and Mental has a 10"f/5 newtonian... these could make an interesting experiment over the Xmas hols next week - assuming we get some sun (still overcast with smoke here). Assuming they are sufficient for ignition, it would then be neat to stop them down so the ignition is slow enough to time with a watch.

Might even try a couple of hand grenade eyepieces.

Last edited by Wavytone; 17-12-2019 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 17-12-2019, 03:57 AM
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Yeah,
That's very similar to what the formula gives, but it's very very optimistic.

OK what about getting members to carry out the following experiment:

1. Using a telescope suitable for a Herschel wedge i.e. a refractor, not Mak or SCT etc. with no diagonal, eyepiece, just the OTA.. Measure objective diameter and record f ratio or focal length.
2. Pointed at the Sun close to noon, preferably on an EQ mount.
3. Using piece of white copy paper placed at focus.
4. Record the time (nearest second) to:
4a Show light smoke
4b Charring/ smouldering
4c visible flame -ignition. Take safety precautions, please!!
5. Submit the above data for analysis.

(A magnifying glass (aperture/ distance to paper recorded) would also work)
Caution: It's always dangerous observing the Sun - take special care.
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Old 17-12-2019, 08:00 AM
Wavytone
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ISure.

I’d also suggest stopping the scope down with a smaller aperture to start with then increasing that until it does ignite. Image quality is irrelevant so a non-circular aperture (square ?) or the secondary mirror don’t matter.

Need to know what sort of paper was used ie. new sheet of 80gsm photocopy paper, card or cardboard etc. and what colour if not white.

Pretty sure magnifying glasses will show a significant loss.

Good one to engage kids, too.
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Old 17-12-2019, 08:40 AM
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For "standardisation" I'd suggest 80 gms white copy paper.

If we can collect data from a few members with different sized lenses/ refractors is should be possible to solve this one!

If nothing happens ( no smoke/ smouldering/ flames) say within 30 sec, then just record the data with "no result" - a negative result is just as important as a positive one.
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Old 17-12-2019, 09:01 AM
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....probably wait for fire season to be over before beginning any experiments?

If not purely for safety, perhaps out of sympathy for the fireys?
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Old 17-12-2019, 09:21 AM
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Merlin66 (Ken)
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I understand your sentiments .....

Don't do this experiment on a day of Total Fire Ban.
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Old 17-12-2019, 09:56 AM
JA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin66 View Post
Yeah,
That's very similar to what the formula gives, but it's very very optimistic.

OK what about getting members to carry out the following experiment:

1. Using a telescope suitable for a Herschel wedge i.e. a refractor, not Mak or SCT etc. with no diagonal, eyepiece, just the OTA.. Measure objective diameter and record f ratio or focal length.
2. Pointed at the Sun close to noon, preferably on an EQ mount.
3. Using piece of white copy paper placed at focus.
4. Record the time (nearest second) to:
4a Show light smoke
4b Charring/ smouldering
4c visible flame -ignition. Take safety precautions, please!!
5. Submit the above data for analysis.

(A magnifying glass (aperture/ distance to paper recorded) would also work)
Caution: It's always dangerous observing the Sun - take special care.
Hi M66,

Also knowing the location latitude would be of benefit in any model in terms of factoring the radiant energy received by the paper according to the cosine of the latitude. This would not be insignificant in Australia where the latitude can range from -10 degrees way up in North Queensland to -44 degrees in The Huon Valley of Tasmania and account for a difference of perhaps 20-30% depending on time of year.

If it's of acute interest you could perhaps Use/acquire a thermocouple or infra red thermometer so as to study the effect more closely.

Best
JA

Last edited by JA; 17-12-2019 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 17-12-2019, 10:28 AM
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Merlin66 (Ken)
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JA,
I agree, but at this stage I believe in KISS (Keep it simple, sunshine!)

If the results justify the addition data/ input then we can move in that direction.

Bear in mind, the topic was based on subjective assessments of "solar danger"

Last edited by Merlin66; 17-12-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 17-12-2019, 10:51 AM
sharkbite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin66 View Post
I understand your sentiments .....

Don't do this experiment on a day of Total Fire Ban.
Or do it at night/indoors so you don't get caught
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Old 17-12-2019, 12:59 PM
julianh72 (Julian)
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I’m joining this conversation quite late, but here’s my $0.02 worth:

The temperature that the paper will reach as a function of time is a non-linear relationship between heat-in (from the concentrated sunlight) and heat-out, from conduction, convection, and radiation, together with the thermal properties of the paper (thickness, density, specific heat, and conductivity).

Typical thermal properties of 80 gsm white paper might be around:
• Thickness: 0.1 mm (a 500-sheet ream is about 50 mm thick)
• Density: 800 kg/m3
• Specific Heat: 1400 J/kg.K
• Conductivity: 0.05 W/m.K

Heat-in can be calculated fairly simply by starting with the assumed solar irradiation of 1,000 W/m2, multiplying by the concentration factor of the lens, and then allowing for losses. For the example given, we arrive at something like 100,000 W/m2 over a 15 mm disc, or 17.7 watts total (without losses), as an upper bound.

Conduction will be very small, as paper is a good thermal insulator – but it can be allowed for in the thermal analysis.

Radiation is a function of the temperature of the paper above ambient, and the nature of the surface – we can assume it is a classical black-body (on both faces) as a first approximation. The hotter the paper gets, the more heat it re-radiates (from both faces), reducing the rate of temperature rise, as the net heat gain (W/m2) falls as the temperature rises.

Convection is the biggest unknown, as it is very dependent upon the air temperature, airflow conditions, and the orientation of the paper.

If the paper is held vertically, natural convection cells will allow free convection to take heat away from both faces. If it is horizontal, the convective heat transfer from the bottom face will be very low (the buoyant hot air “bubble” will be held up against the bottom face of the paper), and for the top face, the heat transfer will be less efficient than when in the vertical orientation.

The presence of any air drafts can change the convection coefficient dramatically – typical values can be as follows:
• Free convection – vertical face in still air: 5 W/m2.K
• Forced convection - Low speed of air over a flat surface: 10 W/m2.K
• Moderate air speed over a flat surface: 100 W/m2.K
• Moderate air speed over a curved surface: 200 W/m2.K
That’s a 20-fold increase (or more) of heat transfer from convection to air, depending on the ambient conditions!
Ref: https://www.engineersedge.com/heat_t...nts__13378.htm

When I run some basic transient heat analysis, assuming 17.7 W over a 15 mm disc, and allowing for conduction, radiation and convection, I get the following indicative times for the paper temperature to reach 600 K (which should be enough to cause ignition):
• Convection Coefficient < 20 W/m2.K: 0.4 seconds
• Convection Coefficient 100 W/m2.K: 0.65 seconds
• Convection Coefficient 125 W/m2.K: 0.9 seconds
• Convection Coefficient 150 W/m2.K: Not applicable – the convective heat transfer is sufficient to keep the temperature below 600 K

If I repeat the analysis, but limit the heat input to say 10 watts total (~ 40% losses), I get the following indicative results:
• Convection Coefficient < 20 W/m2.K: 0.75 seconds
• Convection Coefficient 50 W/m2.K: 1.0 seconds
• Convection Coefficient 100 W/m2.K: Not applicable – the convective heat transfer is sufficient to keep the temperature below 600 K

It seems therefore that a 150 mm f10 OTA is indeed capable of igniting a piece of paper in about 1 second or so – but it can also be prevented from igniting depending on air conditions, losses, etc.

As I said – it’s a very non-linear relationship, and the efficiency of convective heat exchange from paper to air will be a critical factor in determining whether the paper will ignite.
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