Is the Universe very big?

[xelasnave]

I sometimes sit and wonder about the Universe, not why its here or if it had a start, but just how big it must be...

I read the science and get a mind numbing number which tells me the observable Universe is approx 100 billion light years in diameter.

And although I am never really sure as to what science really says it seems to suggest the Universe may be infinite...

The Universe certainly goes on and past the 100 billion light year diameter maybe forever.

But how can a human mind comprehend such distances...for me I can only think of light speed or distance as going aroind the Earth in a rocket seven times in one second...of course that is impossible because we can not get near the speed of light and at seven times a second we far exceed escape velocity...
But that is my crude ruler that I use to get some idea...
So at that speed or velocity I try and imagine crossing the solar system and our gallaxy, then to M31...a mere two million years at around the Earth at seven times a second...the local group and on and on...even the observable universe seems beyond comprehension...and beyond to infinity...well I guess I ask...do others ever think about things like this and do you have a method to make it somehow managable and are you able to relate to something similar to my rocket orbiting the Earth and using it to grasp something of how big the universe may be.
Alex

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Alex .... I think our capacity to try and even consider the expanse of the Universe in distance is incomprehensible to our ' earthly minds ' ....such a ' task ' is too much to understand / comprehend

We use in everyday terms such as klm's and distance traveled by road or Air or Boat ... we can imagine this in our minds quite easily.

No wonder Pro' Brian Cox uses the word ' Vast ' in his documentaries to try and give us a ' grasp ' of how big and how far the Universe extends.

It's beyond my capacity to know how far or big it is.

Col...

[LewisM]

I always ask those that claim the cosmos is FINITE to explain what is beyond "The Barrier". No matter what they answer - heaven, another universe etc, I always answer by asking is THAT finite too? Of course they usually look at you blankly like kangaroos in spotlights right before the bullet...

A vast emptiness that created something out of nothing (where did the atoms come from to start with?), and now we are swimming in this sea of matter and anti-matter, energy and dark energy perpetually ad naueum ad infinitum.

I like the idea some have posited before of what if we are the cells of another life-form, and we are simply looking out into inter-cellular/peri-plasmic space... just as a virus would when inside the much larger microscopic cells (look up images of viruses and be amazed how geometric they are, as well as there functional capabilities). And then that larger life-form is inside another life-form and so on for infinity

I used to be kept awake at night trying to comprehend the Cosmos (and of course, failing) as a kid - it is what got me interested in astronomy.

And when you think of the complexity of the idea, and try to ponder ALTERNATIVES, you realise that any alternative is just as bewildering and infinite.

[xelasnave]

I must say that when I realise that I cant comprehend the vastness I then find that I can not accept that the big bang could be a realistic model of reality.

Certainly I may not understand exactly what the big bang models but my limited understanding has it that at a point slightly after the point in time we can call the start the Universe was infinetly dense (a term I cant get my head around) and infinitely hot...probably already I have something wrong but to proceed upon my limited understanding...this infinetly dense universe then, according to the theory of inflation grew at such a rate that it grew from the size of a basket ball to at least the size of the observable universe in less than, as Degrasse puts it..in less than a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillonth of a second ...
I guess because I cant get my head around inflation and what it asks us to believe I mentally reject that such a thing could happen.

But then when I think of how big the universe appears to be and realise any grasp will be less than it really is, at that point I then ask how could everything ever fit into the small space the model seems to suggest.
I just dont see how the model could be reality.
But clearly science seems content that the model is somewhat perfect.
Even with its problems, which I am uncertain as to what they really are, the steady state model just seems more credible.
I often feel uncomfortable that the big bang came from a priest who I think first proposed that the Universe started as a cosmic egg...and although the priest was a scientist I cant help but feel his faith and its need for a point of creation in part guided the development of the model.

It seems that to question the big bang model is a sure way to be labled a nut job but really I cant accept inflation or that everything once was apparently confined to a region less than the size of an atom...And although the big bang model does not address what was before it seems speculation is happy with the universe being created from nothing which I also find more worrying than a universe that had always existed.
Is it really wrong to question if the big bang model is realistic?
Alex

[baileys2611 (Simon Bailey)]

'Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space'.

I liked the idea posited by someone at some stage that the universe is actually a space created in a finite dimensional space, which is finite for the dimensions we see and feel, but is expanding through the collision of two (or more) 'membranes' of potential energy which exist in multiple dimensions not available to us.

The concept I remember was that membranes of potential energy exist in multiple dimensions and that from time to time these membranes collide and cross each other - like a wave-form in two dimensions colliding with another in different dimensions (but having at least one the same or they wouldn't collide) and that collision changing the potential energy to actual energy.

The expansion theory at the early start can then be explained by the increase in actual energy as the membranes cross over their respective boundaries - like a pencil moving along the edge of a rule except the rule is moving in the opposite direction to the pencil (i.e. the pencil is going right along the edge of the rule, while the rule is going left). So, the point at which the energy first transformed (when the pencil first touched the edge of the rule) is moving away from the 'current' point of energy transformation (where the pencil is at any given time excepting the initial point of touch) at faster than the speed of light, hence being able to expand and move faster than light in our four dimensions.

This gives the appearance of an infinite universe, but with a boundary where potential energy is constantly being created into actual energy.

So, what is beyond the finite border is potential energy in the form of membranes in many dimensions - but depth is a function created by the crossing of two or more membranes and by our perception of those dimensions, that depth would not exist beyond the boundary because it's created only as the membranes collide.

What's beyond the membranes? This theory can't answer that because there is no concept of beyond under this theory, it's potential energy rather than a physical manifestation of that energy.

I'm just a philosopher on this, not trained in any way

[gaseous (Patrick)]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/thisismyjam...jpg?1369893313
my brain hurts

[xelasnave]

I found this...https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/bibl...osmic-egg/amp/
Do not I repeat do not be put off by the title...I nearly did not bother to read past "bible" ...I dont know why it is included. ..strange..but dont miss whats in there and comment if you can.
It is a long read and probably worth a second read...the site name threw me but the author seems to have some insite into the mixing of religion and cosmology.
I would love to hear what others think after they have read what the author has to say.

I sortta like it because it seems I am not the only one who wonders if big bang reflects reality or something else.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Wow Simon that is really something.
I have read it twice and now have two different opinions.
I wonder where I will be when I read it a third time?
Here goes.
Alex

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by LewisM

I always ask those that claim the cosmos is FINITE to explain what is beyond "The Barrier".

There is a possibility that the Universe is finite but unbounded - similar to the surface of a sphere; e.g. if you shoot off at near-light-speed in a particular direction, in a few trillion years you arrive back at your starting point from the opposite direction. While I can't actually visualise what that "looks like", I can just about comprehend it.

However, when I consider the possibility that the universe might be infinite and unbounded (so no matter which way you head, all you find is more universe) - THAT I simply cannot comprehend - but I have to accept that it might actually be true.

[baileys2611 (Simon Bailey)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Wow Simon that is really something.
I have read it twice and now have two different opinions.
I wonder where I will be when I read it a third time?
Here goes.
Alex

Oh dear...sign of a poorly communicated concept?

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by baileys2611

Oh dear...sign of a poorly communicated concept?

Not at all.
Alex

[gary]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Certainly I may not understand exactly what the big bang models but my limited understanding has it that at a point slightly after the point in time we can call the start the Universe was infinetly dense (a term I cant get my head around) and infinitely hot...probably already I have something wrong but to proceed upon my limited understanding...this infinetly dense universe then, according to the theory of inflation grew at such a rate that it grew from the size of a basket ball to at least the size of the observable universe in less than, as Degrasse puts it..in less than a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillonth of a second ...

Hi Alex,

Just a correction with regards the inflationary period.

The inflation theory models the universe as only being in the period from
the Big Bang to somewhere between the first 10-to-the-minus-33rd
and 10-to-the-minus-32nd of a second.

We go from the singularity to the "basketball" in that period, labelled
the "inflationary epoch".

After that, the rate of expansion slows down.

During the inflationary epoch, the linear dimensions of the universe increased
by at least a factor of 10-to-the-26.

What I find surprising is that numbers such as the age of the universe aren't
mind-bogglingly large, but in fact humanly finite.

Take the age of the universe, currently at around 13.82 billion
years old.

Not a trillion-trillion-trillion years old. Not even a trillion years old.
Just 13.82 billion years old.

By comparison, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, Forbes says has
a net worth of US72.8 billion dollars.

Though much of that net worth is "on paper" in the form of share holdings
and so on, nevertheless accountants account for it to at least the nearest dollar.

If a dubious accountant tried to abscond with USD59.8 of it leaving only
USD13.82 billion (the current age of the universe), then the accountant
would have a lot more money than Jeff.

If the accountant tried to argue in his defense in court that even 13.82
billion is an impossible number for the human brain to comprehend,
I doubt the argument would have much traction even with the least
numerate member of the jury.

So the real question is, what the hell happened on that day only 13.82 billion years ago?

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by gary

By comparison, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, Forbes says has
a net worth of US72.8 billion dollars.

Now that I find hard to fathom.

[blindman]

Warning:
Space might not be big as you think

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by blindman

Warning:
Space might not be big as you think

Please have some consideration for our members who may suffer from claustrophobia.

RB

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by RB

Please have some consideration for our members who may suffer from claustrophobia.

RB

Nothing a glass of port can't fix.

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Nothing a glass of port can't fix.

Needs to be BIG !!

[raymo]

Alex,
I can understand you finding the idea of inflation, and the Universe
being created from nothing etc: unacceptable, but surely the notion that
the Universe has always been there is equally hard to accept. That would
mean that every solid, gas, and liquid in the Universe was never created.
Surely it is just as crazy to accept that all that "stuff" has existed
infinitely far into the past, and will, presumably continue to do so
infinitely far into the future.
Everything about our Universe is mind boggling in one way or another, whether it be speeds, distances, sizes, densities, temperatures, and so on,
so why is inflation so hard to accept?
raymo

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by gary

What I find surprising is that numbers such as the age of the universe aren't
mind-bogglingly large, but in fact humanly finite.

Take the age of the universe, currently at around 13.82 billion
years old.

Yes, on the one hand, "13.8 billion years" is a long time, and not really within human comprehension to envisage, but I am also astounded that the Earth itself is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old (about 1/3 the age of the universe), and the first evidence for life is at least 3.7 billion years ago, possibly as much as 4.2 billion years - that is, "just after" the Earth itself formed.

To have matter other than hydrogen and helium with which to form a solar system, implies that we are formed from the remnants of at least second-generation if not third-generation stars.

So on the one hand, "deep time" is very deep indeed - and yet, the Earth is a significant fraction of the age of the universe, and life on Earth has existed for most of that time.

[xelasnave]

Hi Raymo,
The prospect of it having been here forever is mind bending.
How can a human imagine an eternal Universe.
I try.
Imagining infinite is impossible...but as crqzy as it may be the idea appeals.
When I think about it the problems that inflation sort to fix may have been imagined and I use that term loosley,
but we may find it older...anything to get rid of inflation.
I bet no one read the link ...
I am thinking past the CBR things could have been different...I dont know my point was somewhere back there that its big real big.
Sometimes you get a hint of how small you are...

Hi Gary

Yes I have read the numbers I was dumbing it down for myself admittedly...
And I guess as I said it is really big when it hits you sort of spin at least I do.

Alex