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Old 21-12-2017, 09:49 PM
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Andy01 (Andy)
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Another shocker in Melbourne CBD

Getting ready to leave my studio in the CBD after a busy day and hear choppers everywhere.
That’s never good, go online and it seems that another horrible incident involving a car and 16 pedestrians has happened- on a crossing I use twice daily- way to close to home... feel so sorry for those affected, hope the little girl pulls through ok
Gee there’s some sick b#stards out there...
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  #2  
Old 21-12-2017, 10:13 PM
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Barbaric acts deserve a barbaric deterrent. Our present justice system is far too soft IMHO.

There’s a reason why a sense of civic behaviour was instilled into the English over several centuries - the punishments meted out for crimes were draconian and included public flaying or being slowly drawn and quartered - live - with the head placed on a pike to remain on view for several months as a reminder of the fate that awaits others should they be caught.

Hanging or executions were relatively mild in comparison to what the English justice system once dished out.

Should be brought back IMHO where there is no doubt who the culprit was; Martin Bryant for example.

Last edited by Wavytone; 21-12-2017 at 10:29 PM.
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  #3  
Old 22-12-2017, 07:08 AM
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Gday Matt
Quote:
These two cowards
Not sure yet but the morning news is saying there was only the driver in the car ( drug addict with mental probs, so he will probably get off ), and he was "detained" by the bystanders.
The other person caught at the train station appears to have just been "in the area" with a bag full of illegal objects.
Makes you wonder what else is out there.
Andrew
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Old 22-12-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Gday Matt
Not sure yet but the morning news is saying there was only the driver in the car ( drug addict with mental probs, so he will probably get off ), and he was "detained" by the bystanders.
The other person caught at the train station appears to have just been "in the area" with a bag full of illegal objects.
Makes you wonder what else is out there.
Andrew

Quite true Andrew (went to edit my post but made it disappear instead)

Unfortunately until we rid the system of pathetic judges and incompetent magistrates these people will continue to be out on bail and the carnage will continue....
There really is no deterrent value in the Australia justice system...... I think we need to start thinking about discouraging crime by making the life inside prisons rather more unpleasant....

Edited: Apparently Colombian procedures dealing with the cowardly scum like this have changed..... pity

Last edited by Kunama; 22-12-2017 at 10:54 AM.
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  #5  
Old 22-12-2017, 09:11 AM
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Octane (Humayun)
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The guy with the illegal objects was apparently a chef.

H
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  #6  
Old 22-12-2017, 09:37 AM
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The guy with the illegal objects was apparently a chef.

H
Hmm?.. wonder what they would have done to this chef in old England or Colombia....

Mike
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Old 22-12-2017, 09:52 AM
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The_bluester (Paul)
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Have to agree with your sentiment Mike. What happened yesterday is absolutely terrible (Keeping to family friendly language) but as to the calls for bush justice...

Taking the apparent chef as an example. It is bloody hard to un-execute someone when you find out you made the wrong call. It is also pretty difficult to question someone and establish what led up to an action if the first response is to shoot them dead, again, if it was the wrong call it takes summary execution and changes it into state sanctioned murder.


I am going to leave this at my sympathy for the family and friends of all affected by this and leave the justice to those who's job that is.
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Old 22-12-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunama View Post
until we rid the system of pathetic judges and incompetent magistrates these people will continue to be out on bail and the carnage will continue....
100% + 1
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Old 22-12-2017, 10:49 AM
julianh72 (Julian)
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Colombia has it right, there the Police would have dragged him out and shot him , that would have been justice....
And the second guy as well, who was detained originally, but now seems to have not been involved.

I guess that the occasional extra-judicial execution of innocent bystanders or small-time crooks (as is happening right now in the Philippines, for example) is OK under their system of "justice", all in the name of the "greater good"?
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Old 22-12-2017, 11:31 AM
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graham.hobart (Graham stevens)
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Melbourne carnage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...zes#Shooting_2

While my heart goes out to those involved (and my Wife and mother in law were there just a few days ago), sentiments expressed should remember that security forces are not infallible and also tread a thin line between action and restraint in these situations. I don't envy them at all.
Perhaps some security dollars could be better spent on improving mental health services which are pretty dire nationally.
G
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  #11  
Old 22-12-2017, 06:19 PM
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Can't comment. sorry. Political Correctness seems to have too much sway in these matters. But we all know where this is leading. Once upom a time in law enforcement I was told by the bosses, "We don't want to see you malingering around the courthouse". B stands for bail, it also stands for bull#$%^. CCTV evidence?
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  #12  
Old 22-12-2017, 06:25 PM
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Mandatory sentencing, thank you, and in the old NT days, being drunk or under the influence of illicit substances brings a harsher penalty - NO EXCUSE!

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Old 23-12-2017, 08:45 AM
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It was a terrorist act over the "treatment of muslims." Give him what he wants. Apply shariah law to him.
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  #14  
Old 23-12-2017, 09:17 AM
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This is indeed a sad event.

I really have a problem with calling crimes "terrorist" events.

To do so gives folk who commit these acts some sort of lime light that they crave.

They are then recognised by their group as somewhat heroic and the population frightened by their actions.
They commit a crime it is that simple as to why they commit the crime I dont need to know.

By calling these things acts of terror you create the terror and the goal they seek is immediately achieved.


We dont need it.
ALex
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Old 23-12-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
This is indeed a sad event.

I really have a problem with calling crimes "terrorist" events.

To do so gives folk who commit these acts some sort of lime light that they crave.

They are then recognised by their group as somewhat heroic and the population frightened by their actions.
They commit a crime it is that simple as to why they commit the crime I dont need to know.

By calling these things acts of terror you create the terror and the goal they seek is immediately achieved.


We dont need it.
ALex
So you pretend it doesn't exist and hope it goes away.

This refusal to acknowledge reality, prevented the police handing over the Lindt café terrorist attack to those better suited to handle it. The result was not a good one.

You can never prevent something unless you acknowledge and understand what led to it. They've already achieved what they wanted regardless of what you decide to call it.
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Old 23-12-2017, 10:50 AM
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Don't publicise

In this particular Melb CBD case, it's unclear as to the motives or support that this criminal/terrorist had, beyond some "utterances to police"; however: Extremist and Terrorist events would be far more rare if we took away their oxygen- publicity. Publicity is their conduit to public fear. Terrorists don't own TV networks, we let them use them for free "publicity" I'll come out of right field and say .......

DON'T PUBLICISE SUCH EVENTS AT ALL. In any way. Make it illegal to disclose such to the public. By all means the governments/police and other agencies should share such intelligence, but not publically..... if you want to stop this that is. The governments of the world should simply warn people to be vigilant on these and other criminal matters, unless there is a specific threat of an impending event.

On the other hand.... The cynic in me says that those in control like to remain so, so .........

Best
JA
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Old 23-12-2017, 11:07 AM
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Gday JA
Quote:
DON'T PUBLICISE SUCH EVENTS AT ALL. In any way. Make it illegal to disclose such to the public.
And what gets censored next?????
There are already enough euphemisms used to block current news, ( esp suicide by train/etc and the content of cases in courts ), and after all, it will simply pop up on social media these days in its raw form
Better still, we should allow it to be publicised but control the "sensationalist" bent and apply some journalistic analysis if reqd.
As you note, its not going to happen, as the media always wants a feeding frenzy, and the locals with cameras will simply post on twitter etc, but i for one would rather be told the truth in a sensible manner, than fed propaganda.

All good Totalitarian/Fascist govts start up by deciding what people can know, and to me, the fact many Melbournians ran to help vs run away indicates the people can handle the truth .

Andrew
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Old 23-12-2017, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieTrooper View Post
So you pretend it doesn't exist and hope it goes away.

This refusal to acknowledge reality, prevented the police handing over the Lindt café terrorist attack to those better suited to handle it. The result was not a good one.

You can never prevent something unless you acknowledge and understand what led to it. They've already achieved what they wanted regardless of what you decide to call it.
You make a large leap to say I pretend it does not exist and hope it goes away. I dont know why you need say that other than you wish to avoid considering the merit of taking away the prime tool of a terrorist which must be the publicity of their cause.

They break the law so treat them as a common criminal and remove their opportunity to make headline news.

I simply suggest that you play into the terrorist hands by giving them any recognition. Is there is any doubt that they act to gain publicity for their cause and to be recognised within their group as some kind of hero.

Treat them as the criminals they are and deny them their claim to fame by ignoring why.

Do we get front page news when a drunk runs down inoccent folk ...a situation up here a chap killed three people whilst disqualified from driving and under the influence of drugs, do you know to what I refer...of course not he is a criminal now serving time. And such is not issolated it happens far to regularly and far more than terrorist acts.

No one wanted to hear that the drug affected disqualified driver had a poor childhood or he lost his job or whatever stupid reason he may present for driving to endanger and kill.

But if he said he did it for a political cause he would be showered with recognition both good and bad.

His world view was not and need not be mentioned, but no doubt if it was there would be folk who would say they could see he had a problem because he lost his job and was driven to drugs...whatever...who cares he committed a crime his reasons are irrelevant.. His problem is irrelevant and the cause of the terrorist should be treated as irrelevant...

Why do you think these folk do these terrible things and if you cant think why let me suggest it is simply for the attention they know terrorism gets over drunken drivers.

I know it is an emotive issue and all I suggest is what seems to me a sensible way to steal their thunder.

As to calling in a swat team I dont think it turns upon the question of is this a terrorist attack or not, nor does it need to as clearly there are situations that call for swat type teams and their need to be called in presumably could be determined by any police officer as I assume they would receive direction as to the circumstances to call in a swat team.

I really believe that a would be terrorist may think twice about doing anything if his cause will not get publicity.

And so many of these terrorists are obviously nutters so take away their opportunity to claim their cause is behind their action and I bet they would see their action as unproductive and faced with getting no more recognition than that of a mere criminal perhaps would abandon their plans because they are not going to get the publicity.

Certainly my approach would minimise copy cat attacks.
Each attack receives publicity and I suspect it probably would encourage others who see gaining publicity in this way the way to go.

Do you not think that there is any merit in my approach?

Alex
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Old 23-12-2017, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JA View Post
In this particular Melb CBD case, it's unclear as to the motives or support that this criminal/terrorist had, beyond some "utterances to police"; however: Extremist and Terrorist events would be far more rare if we took away their oxygen- publicity. Publicity is their conduit to public fear. Terrorists don't own TV networks, we let them use them for free "publicity" I'll come out of right field and say .......

DON'T PUBLICISE SUCH EVENTS AT ALL. In any way. Make it illegal to disclose such to the public. By all means the governments/police and other agencies should share such intelligence, but not publically..... if you want to stop this that is. The governments of the world should simply warn people to be vigilant on these and other criminal matters, unless there is a specific threat of an impending event.

On the other hand.... The cynic in me says that those in control like to remain so, so .........

Best
JA
I agree in principle with what you say however there is no need to make it illegal it is no more a matter than changing public attitude.

All it would take is each time we have an event is for the politicians to simply say. We are not concerned with the defendants political views or his distorted reality or any reason he seeks to justify his actions..He has commited a criminal act and will be charged and tried for same.

Of course the politicians wont jump at that idea because strangely they love promoting the "us and them" mentality and ready to demonise for their political gain. Take the politics out of crime.

Tell me that is an unreasonable prospect.

Alex
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  #20  
Old 23-12-2017, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Gday JA


And what gets censored next?????
There are already enough euphemisms used to block current news, ( esp suicide by train/etc and the content of cases in courts ), and after all, it will simply pop up on social media these days in its raw form
Better still, we should allow it to be publicised but control the "sensationalist" bent and apply some journalistic analysis if reqd.
As you note, its not going to happen, as the media always wants a feeding frenzy, and the locals with cameras will simply post on twitter etc, but i for one would rather be told the truth in a sensible manner, than fed propaganda.

All good Totalitarian/Fascist govts start up by deciding what people can know, and to me, the fact many Melbournians ran to help vs run away indicates the people can handle the truth .

Andrew
Stop going overboard. It is not that complex nor is there any need to make it so.

Free speech is not at risk.

Please be rational and think about the prospect of a potential to take away the terrorist thunder.

The fact you are so emotive tells me they have won but only because you let them... as suggested cut off their oxygen.

alex
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