New dream of Elon Musk: flying around the world in less than an hour

[skysurfer]

Today at 12:30 ET (no idea what timezone that is, probably url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeris_time]Ephemeris Time[/url] which is actually UTC) Elon Musk had a presentation about settlement on Mars but he ended by telling 'the same rockets we can use to displace people between two places on Earth.

This clip shows JFK-PVG in 39 minutes

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...lon-musk-video

but other long haul flight in less than an hour, even on the opposite side of the world. Imagine, flying from AU to EU in jsut 40 minutes ?

I like that, but problems arise to expose passenger so many G acceleration.
And the space debris should be cleared up as well, as flying via (low orbit) space has the risk of hitting debris.

What are your ideas ?

[lazjen (Chris)]

While I'd love the idea of such quick travel, I can foresee a number of issues besides the cost.

All you need to do is look at how air travel works today to see the problems: getting to/from the airport, check in processes and limits; security control; crammed conditions on the plane (although for shorter flights like these it won't be so unbearable).

Also, let's assume the cost becomes reasonable for a lot of people to use - imagine the amount of traffic / number of flights required and how that will impact things.

Still, I'd prefer such a system to exist, since I'd like to think the other problems can be solved.

[el_draco (Rom)]

World is going faster by the day and at some point, we are going to have to do something about the destruction of the environment wrought by all these damn engines... Give me a tea Clipper or a leisurely airship any day!!

[glend (Glen)]

The advantages that Musk will have, over traditional airline transport are:

1.No need for airport infrastructure, he can just bring in one of his barges and sit it in Sydney Harbour, or New York Harbour, Hong Kong etc. Extremely small footprint required, and he supplies the barges as well. Transport to and from the barges would be by fast ferry as shown in the video.

2. He builds the BFR ships in quanity, in effect the more he can build the cheaper the unit cost, and the more uses he can find for these ships the more business he will gain. Effectively he is trying to create a space equivalent of the old DC3.

3. This could destroy companies like Boeing, or at least relegate them to domestic short haul runs. Yes there are people who may not be able to fly on sub orbital flights for health reasons, but the market for long haul jets will be hit hard.

4. He need not actually operate rhe service, only suplly the infrastructure, which is what he wants to pay for his Mars program. Qantas, Virgin, etc may operate the sub orbital service and they would jump at the chance.

5. Instead of trying to compete in this segment, he invents a new segment and business model. He focuses on the engineering and infrastructure to stay well ahead of any competitor.

6. His time table to have BFR cargo ships on Mars in 2022 is aggressive and no other entity is so far advanced to compete in that time frame. Spacex already has fuel tanks designed and being built. The engines have been tested. He is starting BFR production in Qtr 1 of 2018. The first two BFR flights to Mars in 2022 will carry the fuel depot equipment so that fuel can be made on Mars for the 2024 arrivals to have earth return fuel supplies.

7. His use of orbital tankers is simplicity and cost effective. Fuel is transfered by using inertia of the load to flow it into empty tanks on existing plumbing. A genius solution.

8. Possible competitors, like the others announced yestetdays, are way behind, and have no business model to support how the infrastructure will be paid for, and government cannot afford fo do it.

9. By sewing up the market, for orbital services, Lunar services, and Mars colonisation, he is going to have the most cost effective business model. If a BFR can deliver a 9m diametre satellite to orbit, he opens up the market to satellite designs that cannot be built today. He can carry many standard satellites in a BFR cargo bay, bringing the launch cost down to where others cannot compete.

The most impressive thing about his presentation is that it is based on a new business model, based on his BFR ships. I hope he can make it work.

[Boozlefoot]

[QUOTE=el_draco;1337920]World is going faster by the day and at some point, we are going to have to do something about the destruction of the environment wrought by all these damn engines... Give me a tea Clipper or a leisurely airship any day!!

+1

[Visionary (David)]

Unfortunately, it is utterly impractical. In today's security-obsessed, litigation crazed world Elon's earthbound dream isn't possible. You can just imagine how many people would experience Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from the G's and the general craziness of sub-orbit flight.
On the other hand, Elon's Mars & Lunar dreams are highly probable as the travelers could be vetted for stupidity before the flight. The enormously energetic requirements of sub-orbit flight are simply unrealistic for today's "average" person. Recall the last flight you took and the incredible collection of utter incompetents you shared the flight with, imagine exposing them to Sub-Orbital flight stresses!
ps: please excuse the apparent arrogance of this post. In my defense just look at the person sitting next to you next time you board an aircraft and ask yourself would you be prepared to entrust your life to them in the event of an in-flight emergency? By the way, I use a white cane, in the event of an emergency would you entrust your life to me? Ballistic Sub-Orbital flights cannot be for everyone!

[casstony]

It all sounds great to me. I cheer on the dreamers and hope they have a mostly successful future. (got to be a few failures at the leading edge).

[scagman (John)]

Maybe people will have to have a once off medical before hand. Or every 5-10yrs. No medical no fly.

Originally Posted by Visionary

Unfortunately, it is utterly impractical. In today's security-obsessed, litigation crazed world Elon's earthbound dream isn't possible. You can just imagine how many people would experience Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from the G's and the general craziness of sub-orbit flight.
On the other hand, Elon's Mars & Lunar dreams are highly probable as the travelers could be vetted for stupidity before the flight. The enormously energetic requirements of sub-orbit flight are simply unrealistic for today's "average" person. Recall the last flight you took and the incredible collection of utter incompetents you shared the flight with, imagine exposing them to Sub-Orbital flight stresses!
ps: please excuse the apparent arrogance of this post. In my defense just look at the person sitting next to you next time you board an aircraft and ask yourself would you be prepared to entrust your life to them in the event of an in-flight emergency? By the way, I use a white cane, in the event of an emergency would you entrust your life to me? Ballistic Sub-Orbital flights cannot be for everyone!

[glend (Glen)]

There are plenty of idiots with money who will pay to be able to say they did it, and they will take a selfie to put it on Facebook. For the very rich, and it will cost probably more than the Concorde, the cost won't matter if they can commute to work on the other side of the world, or to go skiing, etc. I am all for the rich subsidising spsce travel.

[Visionary (David)]

Originally Posted by scagman

Maybe people will have to have a once off medical before hand. Or every 5-10yrs. No medical no fly.

John, I am certain you're correct. I am also certain it would take more than just a Medical. I believe some training would be required so the actual physics of the flight can be understood, thereby removing the mystery and potential fear of Sub-Orbital flight.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by Visionary

John, I am certain you're correct. I am also certain it would take more than just a Medical, I believe some training would be required so the actual physics of the flight can be understood, thereby removing the mystery and potential fear of Sub-Orbital flight.

What is Richard Branson doing for his passengers? This won't be an issue imho. If people sign a release then the risk is on them. People used to think driving in a car faster than walking pace would kill them. Adapt.

[skysurfer]

In The Verge is an article about the enormous challenges which appear with such a project.
Personally , I rather believe in a space plane than in a rocket full of highly flammable fuel and liquid oxygen. Imagine an explosion occurs at Sydney Harbor spaceport.
A space plane requires less new infrastructure, as they can use normal airports with just a few modifications.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

In The Verge is an article about the enormous challenges which appear with such a project.
Personally , I rather believe in a space plane than in a rocket full of highly flammable fuel and liquid oxygen. Imagine an explosion occurs at Sydney Harbor spaceport.
A space plane requires less new infrastructure, as they can use normal airports with just a few modifications.

Airport are big businesses, and usually monopolies, with high cost to use their runways. Musk is saying i don't need the old way of doing things, and to pay you for the priviledge. If you watched the presentation you would realise that passenger traffic is only going to happen when there have been thousands of launches and landings proving reliability of the reusable model. You could make the same claims about an A380 full of jet fuel.
A space plane plays right into the hands of the airport owners.

[Wavytone]

Once it gets down to ~ 1 day the flight time is pretty much irrelevant due to

- the time required for surface travel home to the vehicle, then from vehicle to the ultimate destination, plus the time to clear baggage, customs and immigration. All of which consume the best part of a day anyway.

- the problem of adjusting your body clock to the new timezone.

Utterly unnecessary and irresponsible in terms of the grotesque consumption of resources and environmental pollution to accomplish that journey per person.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by Wavytone

Once it gets down to ~ 1 day the flight time is pretty much irrelevant due to

- the time required for surface travel home to the vehicle, then from vehicle to the ultimate destination, plus the time to clear baggage, customs and immigration. All of which consume the best part of a day anyway.

- the problem of adjusting your body clock to the new timezone.

Utterly unnecessary and irresponsible in terms of the grotesque consumption of resources and environmental pollution to accomplish that journey per person.

Did you actually watch what he said? Do you know what a full laden jumbo jet weighs (a 747 can weigh 440 tonnes, and A380 much more), and how much of the earths resources go into making them? Regarding resources and pollution, compare a maybe ten minute launch burn with a jumbo jet burning jet fuel for 15 hours to get to the same place. The BRF ship has stubby winglets and a full length heat shield, powered descent burn is only used in the last few minutes for slowing and switching attitude to vertical landing. Do you know how many passengers the BRF ship can carry in that configuration? Lets get the facts straight before we burn this guy.

[Wavytone]

Originally Posted by glend

Did you actually watch what he said? Regarding resources and pollution, compare a maybe ten minute launch burn with a jumbo jet burning jet fuel for 15 hours to get to the same place. The BRF ship has stubby winglets and a full length heat shield, powered descent burn is only used for the last 30 secs to sliw and switch to vertical landing.

Yes I did. But per person making the flight the use of resources is insane compared to a conventional jet.

All very well if you are as rich and environmentally irresponsible as Musk is. This is not something that is a sustainable way to travel for the masses. We'd poison the planet in a decade if all travelled that way.

Ditto his Teslas, frankly. Its a nice stunt to show it is possible to build an electric vehicle that has acceptable performance and range - sufficient get people out of petrol-powered cars - BUT - there is a catch - his batteries are hopelessly unfriendly environmentally and only a stop-gap till a solution is found that is tolerable in the long-term.

And Glen you should know full well why Union Carbide suddenly bailed out of Rhodes, and the mess that was left behind.

[skysurfer]

Originally Posted by glend

Did you actually watch what he said? Do you know what a full laden jumbo jet weighs (a 747 can weigh 440 tonnes, and A380 much more), and how much of the earths resources go into making them? Regarding resources and pollution, compare a maybe ten minute launch burn with a jumbo jet burning jet fuel for 15 hours to get to the same place. The BRF ship has stubby winglets and a full length heat shield, powered descent burn is only used in the last few minutes for slowing and switching attitude to vertical landing. Do you know how many passengers the BRF ship can carry in that configuration? Lets get the facts straight before we burn this guy.

But a BFR cannot load 440 passengers as an A380 or 747 or 777 can. And a rocket weighing several tons requires LOTS of energy to overcome the escape velocity of 11.2 km/s. Indeed it does not run 14 hours for a Dubai - Sydney flight, but the power used in that 10 minutes to lift those tons into orbit is a multiple of the takeoff power of a fully loaded A380.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

But a BFR cannot load 440 passengers as an A380 or 747 or 777 can. And a rocket weighing several tons requires LOTS of energy to overcome the escape velocity of 11.2 km/s. Indeed it does not run 14 hours for a Dubai - Sydney flight, but the power used in that 10 minutes to lift those tons into orbit is a multiple of the takeoff power of a fully loaded A380.

As Musk outlined in the presentation video, the BRF can be configured to carry up to 800 passengers on suborbital flights and 100 in Mars transit configuration. The BRF itself is much lighter than an A380. I am not going to debate every possible "what if's" that the luddites raise. Suffice to say, change is good, and many things about his model need work and testing in orbital and Martian service before the relevant authorites are going to grant him a passenger license. Time will tell. This is my last post on this topic.