I'm heading out to a dark site in western NSW with my family at the end of September, to show the little ones the Milky Way and get in two nights of observations using our new scope (planned to be a Celestron Evo 8) and binos (weather permitting, fingers crossed).
While there, I'd like to capture some images of the Milky Way using my Panasonic DMC-ZS7 - a sort of point & shoot camera I used to take HD videos while gliding. It has a 'starry skies' setting that I'd like to try out, but it can also take shots with manual settings.
It's a 12 mega-pixel camera, with a 25mm-300mm zoom, aperture range f3.3 to f6.3 and adjustable shutter speeds out to 60 seconds. ISO sensitivity is 80, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600.
The starry sky setting will set ISO to 80 and allow me to choose between 15, 30 and 60 second exposures.
If I whack this on a tripod and give it a shutter timer to minimise any vibration, do you think I could get some reasonable shots? I figure I'd try 15 and 30 second exposures (longer than 30 secs I thought I might get lines rather than dots for the stars), but any thoughts on likelihood of success?
Also, would appreciate advice on settings to use for manual shots rather than its automatic starry sky setting. I assume from my limited reading, I'd go for f3.3, ISO 1600?
I don't know about that particular camera, from from the reading I have done, stopping down the lens a little can make a big difference to the shape of the stars.
Try to have a look at Milky Way shots here and generally on the web.
I find those with objects in the frame tend to look more interesting.
Maybe try flashing a torch briefly over the little ones while they are in the frame?
As Hodur said, try it out. Takes notes as you go, mind you, you may well have EXIF data that give you the settings used.
You have an excellent opportunity to take some videos of the Planets and process them into images!
If you have a barlow lens to add some magnification, that is a huge bonus.
But even if you don't, slot in an eyepiece, 10mm say, butt the lens up to the eyepiece, use your camera's zoom to zoom in. Not too far though, maybe 20x and shoot some short videos. If 10 seconds is all you can manage, so be it, but 30 seconds would be better.
To process you may have to convert your video into .avi format. I use "any video converter"
Drop the .avi into "Autostakkert" and let it stack the video into one image.
Get the saved file from Autostakkert and open it in Registax6 and apply sharpening wavelets.
Finally, grab the saved file from Registax and do some final tweaking in photoshop.
Any Video Converter, Autoskakkert and Registax are free to download.
PS. It's sometimes easier to adjust your focus on the telescope than fiddling with your cameras focus.
Thanks everyone - and Jeanette, i hadn't thought of that - I'll give it a try!
It's a bit fiddly to get the hang of getting the planet in the field of view, but with a little practice you'll be fine.
I look forward to seeing your results.
For the milky way shots, the "Starry" setting with ISO 80 is not good enough.
Best to try first with manual settings
at ISO 1600, Aperture 3.3 - 4 .
Maybe, the sky is dark enough to try ISO 800, as well.
As for the exposure time on a normal tripod:
that depends on where the object is in the sky and which zoom you are using.
All the way up at the zenith with 25mm you can do 30 seconds without star trailing.
The lower the object is, the shorter the exposure time has to be to avoid trailing.
At 25mm, anything below the zenith looks good at 20 seconds, 25 secs max.
If you use your camera's zoom the exposure time gets even shorter.
You could google the 600 rule.
Or you could just try it out
You may find, as I did, that many compact cameras with manual control functions are not fully manual. Most of the lower end models will only allow you to use longer shutter speeds with lower iso values. This reduces the light gathering capabilities of the sensor thus making them unsuitable for wide field astrophotography. The manufacturer's logic in doing this is to reduce the effects of noise and make the images look better.
You'll need to experiment to find the optimum settings for your camera lens aperture/ISO/exposure time combination.
I've done quite a few shots with my Panasonic LX5, many turned out quite well. This compact however is a fairly unusual compact:
- can do exposures up to 4 minutes, most compacts stop after 30 sec or less;
- full manual control of all settings;
- you need a fast lens - the LX5 lens is f2 and sharp to the corners. Cheap compacts with f/4 or f/5.6 lenses simply won't record much more than a few stars.
In practice I found exposures for 1 minute at ISO400, f/2 were optimal. While you could increase ISO all this did was increase the sensor noise (background speckle) without really capturing more stars/nebulae, while reducing the exposure time didn't fix this.
It worked even better if I set it to ISO 80 on a tracking mount for 4 minute exposures, but you need a mount that tracks the sky for that. Without that you'll be limited to a minute or so before the earths rotation produces star trails.
Another aspect concerns vibration. Even though I sometimes put the camera in a rock (leave the tripod at home, IMHO they're not much help) the trick here is to use the self timer (assuming the camera has one) so the camera will settle before the shutter opens a few seconds after you take your mitts off it.
Lastly don't panic if there's a long pause after a shot taken with a long exposure - the LX5 and many others all do dark-frame subtraction in the camera. What this means is that it takes a black shot internally of the same duration and subtracts this from the real shot, in order to remove some of the sensor noise.
ISO80 isn't going to show anything. ISO3200 to 6400 is the usual range used.
Use 25mm wide open. Use RAW. Use 30 seconds. You will get some star elongation but its not really visible in usual sizes of image presentation. I don't know what the noise levels are of your camera but most modern cameras are reasonably noise free at ISO3200 and the better ones ISO6400. Colour noise is fairly easy to reduce in Lightroom or Photoshop later on.
Wide open your lens may display false colour where bright stars look magenta. If that is the case you can either process that out in Photoshop or Adobe Lightroom or stop it down a bit until that goes. That depends on the quality of the lens. Some lenses also display bad star distortions in the corners until stopped down. If its a fixed zoom to the camera chances are its not bad as its a small sensor and its been matched to that sensor. I have a Sony RX100 that is good wide open.
Use a tripod. Setting a timer delay is a good idea.
Turn noise reduction off and any stabilisation off.
Use auto white balance, do manual focusing you are unlikely to get a lock on auto focus but I suppose you could try on a bright star. I usually use magnified view on a bright star with a mirrorless and manual focus.
If you can't do that then try a few exposures and check the focus carefully in the electronic viewfinder after each shot until its spot on.
Once its all working you can also take multiple shots of the same scene and add them in Photoshop later. Say 4 or 5 shots at 30 seconds or even 20 seconds if you want to tighten up the stars but reduce the extra noise by stacking.
You can create a panorama by simply reframing to the next overlapping scene (overlap by about 40%) say 6 wide and 2 or 3 up to form a Milky Way bow type shot.
Micosoft ICE is a free stitching program that works. I use PT Gui Pro which is pretty fast and I am used to it which helps with software, using what you know.
I've done plenty of good shots with panasonic compacts (lx and fz ranges usually, some leica dlux). I have an fz1000 set up on tripod with a polarie currently.
do tests NOW, dont wait until The Night when you'll do everything wrong.
you need to be able to adjust focus manually and keep it locked. this might not be possible on your camera so find out, autofocus might work on the moon but nothing else. the stars are essentially the same distance for the purposes of a compact camera , so get infinite focus set on or off tripod on ANY part of the sky, try for bright stars or planets. I'm betting focus will be the biggest problem.
then set the widest aperture (f3.3) at shortest focal length (25mm?) and highest iso testing. set exposure time for approximately 500 divided by focal length (in this example 20sec) to get close to round stars. take test shot. look at pic, is it too noisy? reduce iso. are the stars streaking? reduce exposure time.
shots should be taken on tripod with a timer delay because you will blur the shot, remote trigger is handy. that should get you started but its YOU that has to do testing first, you start with a starting point of settings and refine until ready to take LOTS of shot to align and stack back home.
also check stellarium for time/location to see where the milky way will be positioned in the sky and wait for astronomical dark to take your shot sets.
You may find, as I did, that many compact cameras with manual control functions are not fully manual. Most of the lower end models will only allow you to use longer shutter speeds with lower iso values. This reduces the light gathering capabilities of the sensor thus making them unsuitable for wide field astrophotography. The manufacturer's logic in doing this is to reduce the effects of noise and make the images look better.
Yep, I found this out the hard way. Purchased a camera which after reading the specs would allow me to control the settings normally within its capabilities. Only to find out that certain settings are restricted dependent on zoom levels, or other settings selected.
For example, at full zoom, the f stop is restricted between f5.0 & f8.0. Or if I select ISO 800 the shutter speed is reduced from 15 seconds to only 2 seconds - so obtaining a decent photo of the Milky Way is really out of the question.
Until I can save up enough for a decent DSLR, I am making do however. I am going to try to upload some images taken with the Nikon P600 whcih was really purchased to get the crazy 24-1440mm lens. That equates to 60x optical zoom, hence the ability to get some reasonable photos of Jupiter & Saturn without also requiring a telescope.
BUT, I really want to get full control over the settings, so the DSLR is on the list of things to buy sooner rather than later....although I intend to keep the Nikon P600 for close-ups, as the cost of a lens with 1440mm zoom is prohibitive!
Anyone have any recommendations for a budget yet capable DSLR for milky way photos? Under a grand including lens is about where I am at...
Mark, my post on the 9th of August shows what can be done photographing the Milky Way with the right compact digital camera. I purchased it second hand for $150, so you don't have to spend much. You've just got to choose one with full manual control. This one also has a CCD sensor and not a CMOS sensor which most seem to have. It helps with sensitivity and colour. The shot was taken just on a tripod and so I had to shoot it at 1600 iso to reduce the time to 15 seconds to prevent star trailing but if you can mount it to a tracker of some kind you'd achieve much better results by decreasing the iso and increasing the time.
A couple of questions about that photo, which as the noob I am I really aren't sure about:
1. Was the photo taken as RAW or Jpeg?
2. If Jpeg, how do you stack images (if at all possible)?
Last question - I am considering getting one of two cameras (within my constrained budget limitations), the Canon EOS 1300D, or the Nikon D5100.
Would you or any one else know which of the two of these would be setter suited to Milky Way photos. I am biased towards the Nikon as from previous experience I know that the low-light capabilities of almost all the Nikons is pretty goo.
Thanks for your advice thus far. Great photo on the 9th August by the way
Mark I shoot in raw because I like the pic to be an original representation of the sky. That way, I can add or reduce aspects of the shot to suit my preferences. To be honest though, the camera's jpegs do a pretty good job anyway. It's really up to you because the program I use to stack ( Deep Sky Stacker) which is a freeware program, will stack jpegs as well. I think in regard to cameras, whether we're talking Canon or Nikon, there isn't much between them. I'd look up reviews online and see how they compare in regard to noise at high isos, sensitivity (to Ha especially) and features such as a variable Lcd screen, which is a real asset to have for astro shots when the camera can be at all sorts of angles. There may be others on this forum that will know more about this. By the way, thanks for the compliment about the Milky Way shot.
Well, it looks like my camera has a pretty reasonable manual mode - I can set the F stop, the shutter speed up to 60 seconds, and the ISO, as well as disabling flash, stabilisation etc. However, no option for RAW format, so I'll be stuck with jpeg.
So I will test it tonight and see what sort of shots I can get from the backyard.
Mark I shoot in raw because I like the pic to be an original representation of the sky. That way, I can add or reduce aspects of the shot to suit my preferences. To be honest though, the camera's jpegs do a pretty good job anyway. It's really up to you because the program I use to stack ( Deep Sky Stacker) which is a freeware program, will stack jpegs as well. I think in regard to cameras, whether we're talking Canon or Nikon, there isn't much between them. I'd look up reviews online and see how they compare in regard to noise at high isos, sensitivity (to Ha especially) and features such as a variable Lcd screen, which is a real asset to have for astro shots when the camera can be at all sorts of angles. There may be others on this forum that will know more about this. By the way, thanks for the compliment about the Milky Way shot.
Many thanks for the assistance Michael. I have managed to find a decent low-usage (shutter count below 200!) 2nd hand Nikon D5100 online for a bargain price with two lenses which will enable me to get some RAW images and start playing with them. I also downloaded DeepSkyStacker per your advice - now I need to learn how to use it
Now, where to go to find somewhere with low levels of light pollution around Brisbane to get some photos before the moon gets too bright....anyone know somewhere within a reasonable driving distance from BrisVegas to get some clear shots of the Milky Way??
Well, we had to postpone our dark trip by a month due to flooding, but on the weekend I got to try my compact camera out, using the tips here.
These are unmanipulated images using the manual settings and a 60 second shutter speed. A shorter exposure would have been better, but this time of year the Milky Way sets pretty early, so there was still a bit of light around when I took the photos (was around 9pm), so I went with a longer exposure.
Will try again to see if 30 seconds reduces the distortion (man, the stars move a lot in a minute) and its pretty grainy, but the result is clearer and brighter than with the naked eye.
I also took some of the Magellanic Clouds, which are an amazing sight.
Last question - I am considering getting one of two cameras (within my constrained budget limitations), the Canon EOS 1300D, or the Nikon D5100.
The Canon 1300D, best bang for buck in simplicity yet still a very good camera. I have the 1200D, low noise sensor, 18 megapixels, Live view and good ISO range. If you want to go over 30 sec exposure buy a wired remote (or Infrared) which will also let you trigger it without vibration and allow 1-2 minute or more exposures ( Star trails anyone ? )
If you get a bit more serious with BYEos and direct connect to your scope it is the simplest and best way to learn and capture astropix either as planetary video or long exposure nebulae pix.
You have an excellent opportunity to take some videos of the Planets and process them into images!
