Tesla powerwall for solar energy storage

[Shiraz (Ray)]

hi
not sure if this topic has been linked to before, but if it hasn't it is definitely worth a look. Have a look at the video - the presentation style is very annoying, but it is worth gritting your teeth and continuing on - the substance is breathtaking in scope and this is a truly disruptive technology. (came across it while looking at electric cars re Alexander's thread)
regards Ray
http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/powerwall

edit: hope this (or similar) product catches on - then maybe we will never again have to hear the words "it won't deliver base load power"

edit 2: just found that AGL have announced a similar product. http://www.agl.com.au/about-agl/medi...attery-storage With the way electricity pricing is structured, the Australian utilities will have to do something, because the payoff from battery backed solar would currently be very attractive for the consumer.

[Chif (Andrew)]

It's very exciting. I'd love to have a system allowing me to go off grid. This definitely brings it one step closer.

I think that what is offered by Tesla isn't actually all that cheaper than what is currently available. All the press associated with it however, is fantastic.

[xelasnave]

I have been off grid for 20 years because there is
no grid available.
I am down to 85 watt panel and 100 amp h battery as my needs are minimal.

[Shiraz (Ray)]

Originally Posted by Chif

It's very exciting. I'd love to have a system allowing me to go off grid. This definitely brings it one step closer.

I think that what is offered by Tesla isn't actually all that cheaper than what is currently available. All the press associated with it however, is fantastic.

Do you have any current costings? - I am way out of date. The last time I looked was a couple of years ago, when a 20kWH LiIon battery storage system was about $30k from memory - Tesla quote $3kUS for their 7kWH system. Zen seem to be considering a $10-15k system with about 10kWH capacity.
I think that the big difference with Tesla is that Musk probably has enough cash to buy a few utility companies if he wants, so nobody is going to be able to stall the introduction into the market or artificially inflate the costs - these things are probably going to appear in large quantities and at a reasonable price.

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I have been off grid for 20 years because there is
no grid available.
I am down to 85 watt panel and 100 amp h battery as my needs are minimal.

lovely situation to be in - presume that you have enough land to provide wood for energy. I have to buy energy .

[xelasnave]

Wood for fueling a huge open fire at least.
200 acres uncleared darkmountain top

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by Shiraz

edit: hope this (or similar) product catches on - then maybe we will never again have to hear the words "it won't deliver base load power"

US$3000 buys one a Powerwall which is good for 10 years. Plus one has to buy an inverter to give the correct voltage.

By their own website, the Powerwall will be able to power a fridge for a day and let one do one load of washing in the washing machine.

If one wishes to live at the standard of living like back in Edison's days, get a Powerwall.

If one wants to live like today and have effective baseload power, one is going to need five or six of these units. At US$18000 for ten years, I suppose that's not so bad. though that is only the cost of the batteries, one needs the inverter and the solar panels as well, and I don't know how much they cost and how long they last.

But the main use would be for people to power it up with either solar electricity or off-peak grid electricity, and make genuine savings by using it at peak times.
Regards,
Renato

P.S. Though things can still become problematic when the sun doesn't shine.

[Shiraz (Ray)]

Originally Posted by Renato1

US$3000 buys one a Powerwall which is good for 10 years. Plus one has to buy an inverter to give the correct voltage.

By their own website, the Powerwall will be able to power a fridge for a day and let one do one load of washing in the washing machine.

If one wishes to live at the standard of living like back in Edison's days, get a Powerwall.

If one wants to live like today and have effective baseload power, one is going to need five or six of these units. At US$18000 for ten years, I suppose that's not so bad. though that is only the cost of the batteries, one needs the inverter and the solar panels as well, and I don't know how much they cost and how long they last.

But the main use would be for people to power it up with either solar electricity or off-peak grid electricity, and make genuine savings by using it at peak times.
Regards,
Renato

P.S. Though things can still become problematic when the sun doesn't shine.

I see it completely differently Renato - these devices are not an alternative to the grid, but they do overcome the two major limitations of solar energy: 1. solar can now provide power at night. 2. the grid stability is no longer compromised by fluctuating generation. In fact, if enough storage could be made available, the utility companies could generate power much more efficiently since load peaks would also be smoothed out.

These things do not allow you to run your fridge for a day - your solar panels do that for half the day and the storage system only needs to do it for the other half. I could get about twice as much useful power out of my solar panels if I could store some (now I sell excess to the grid at nearly nothing - with storage I could actually use that power at night, rather than buy it back off the grid at 9x the feed in rate). That gives me an extra few bucks a day in the pocket (which would be a really good low risk return on investment), there could be a significant reduction in carbon pollution and the utility company gets a better behaved grid and reduced costs of meeting peak loads - to me that's a win-win all round. Oh and I will also probably have some power for lights etc if the grid goes down.

Why would you think that getting a powerwall takes me back to the days of Edison? - I get to use all of my solar power for my own benefit and the grid is still there for the rest, only it could be a lot more efficient if these things were in wide use.

[Eratosthenes (Peter)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I have been off grid for 20 years because there is
no grid available.
I am down to 85 watt panel and 100 amp h battery as my needs are minimal.

wow, you have a small environmental footprint xela. well done. Can you run a fridge with that sort of system? Do you have a generator as back up?

My on-Grid solar system is a 2.3 kW with a SMA sunnyboy inverter, and can generate about 2900 kWhr per year. The 66 cents per kWhr premium rebate for any power i put back into the Grid is what makes it work while. About 70% of the total solar output goes back into the Grid, and the rebate covers by annual electricity and gas bills with maybe $300 to spare. The pay back period is about 5 years for the total cost of the system.

I have been ecologically shamed and feeling very guilty now

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by Shiraz

I see it completely differently Renato - these devices are not an alternative to the grid, but they do overcome the two major limitations of solar energy: 1. solar can now provide power at night. 2. the grid stability is no longer compromised by fluctuating generation. In fact, if enough storage could be made available, the utility companies could generate power much more efficiently since load peaks would also be smoothed out.

These things do not allow you to run your fridge for a day - your solar panels do that for half the day and the storage system only needs to do it for the other half. I could get about twice as much useful power out of my solar panels if I could store some (now I sell excess to the grid at nearly nothing - with storage I could actually use that power at night, rather than buy it back off the grid at 9x the feed in rate). That gives me an extra few bucks a day in the pocket (which would be a really good low risk return on investment), there could be a significant reduction in carbon pollution and the utility company gets a better behaved grid and reduced costs of meeting peak loads - to me that's a win-win all round. Oh and I will also probably have some power for lights etc if the grid goes down.

Why would you think that getting a powerwall takes me back to the days of Edison? - I get to use all of my solar power for my own benefit and the grid is still there for the rest, only it could be a lot more efficient if these things were in wide use.

Hi Ray,
What their site says is that one US$3000 unit will run your fridge for a day and enable you to do one load of washing. If you only had one unit, and you disconnected from your grid power - then on sunny days you wouldn't have much power to do stuff like run electric ovens, electric stoves, air conditioners, electric heater, electric hot water. On non-sunny days, you'd have to fire up a diesel generator.

Suppose that everyone bought one or more of these devices. Then the "savings" would disappear, because the electricity suppliers would have to raise their price of off-peak power, and charge for supplying the baseload.
Else they would go broke and close down the generators. At the moment they are effectively supplying the baseload for free.

At the moment, when the winds generators are feeding into the grid - usually at a peak power time of the day, the coal generators can't reduce their output because they can't turn off the generators. They just shed the power. There is no reduction in coal usage. Now add to this situation millions of these Powerwalls reducing demand at peak period on sunny days. And the power generators have to have capacity going for peak period on non-sunny and non- windy days - and there is a big problem. Yes, they can build gas-fired generators which are easier to turn off and on - but it costs a lot of money to build a gas fired generator to just sit there being run intermittently. It wouldn't be economic without it being paid for by a baseload charge on everybody.

In other words, the Powerwall is good for frugal individuals, but only for as long as everyone else doesn't do the same. But not everyone will join in because a third or so of the population are renters, who are unlikely to have their own solar panels and Powerwalls. Most likely they will be subsidizing the richer land owners, as they are doing now.
Regards,
Renato

[g__day (Matthew)]

Trina have also soft launched their rather well position but (in my view 50%-60%) over-priced solutions - which are Lithium based storage plus inverter - in decent sizes and maximum power out ratings - but at $1,200 USD a kWh they did an oppsie. About $800 a kWh is the target I reckon must be hit for an economical solution.

The one I am really keen of seeing and what price point they hit are the modular 1.2kWh Enphase systems - as I love web based controlled, individually controllable and programmable storage solutions. A system with Enphase micro-inverters on any decent solar panel, plus Enphase storage on the new Enphase Gateway-S would be a killer design in my view. Time will tell as these technologies are now well less than 12 months away.

[GrahamL]

I have few friends who are completely off grid and its definately a differant lifestyle choice for sure , not thats a bad thing .

One I know generates and stores his power through wind and solar his home is just like any other to look at , his large timber shed out back was donated by another dissmantled and rebuilt , he does have a small petrol generater which rarely gets used ( washing machines and a family drain power ), hes got a recycled fuel bowser pump attached to it so he can fill his water supply tank up the hill or generate power. Milks a cow , keeps chickens and grows his own veges.

[Shiraz (Ray)]

Originally Posted by Renato1

Hi Ray,
What their site says is that one US$3000 unit will run your fridge for a day and enable you to do one load of washing. If you only had one unit, and you disconnected from your grid power - then on sunny days you wouldn't have much power to do stuff like run electric ovens, electric stoves, air conditioners, electric heater, electric hot water. On non-sunny days, you'd have to fire up a diesel generator.

Suppose that everyone bought one or more of these devices. Then the "savings" would disappear, because the electricity suppliers would have to raise their price of off-peak power, and charge for supplying the baseload.
Else they would go broke and close down the generators. At the moment they are effectively supplying the baseload for free.

At the moment, when the winds generators are feeding into the grid - usually at a peak power time of the day, the coal generators can't reduce their output because they can't turn off the generators. They just shed the power. There is no reduction in coal usage. Now add to this situation millions of these Powerwalls reducing demand at peak period on sunny days. And the power generators have to have capacity going for peak period on non-sunny and non- windy days - and there is a big problem. Yes, they can build gas-fired generators which are easier to turn off and on - but it costs a lot of money to build a gas fired generator to just sit there being run intermittently. It wouldn't be economic without it being paid for by a baseload charge on everybody.

In other words, the Powerwall is good for frugal individuals, but only for as long as everyone else doesn't do the same. But not everyone will join in because a third or so of the population are renters, who are unlikely to have their own solar panels and Powerwalls. Most likely they will be subsidizing the richer land owners, as they are doing now.
Regards,
Renato

Hi Renato.

Your arguments only apply if you go fully off-grid, but there is no requirement to do that. I don't see this as being a way to go off-grid - but it does put solar energy right up there as a fully viable alternative energy source - and one that is now much more cost competitive in the retail environment.

Renewables definitely will change the way the utilities behave. However, it is not correct to say that there is no reduction in carbon pollution when renewables are operating. In South Australia we average >30% power from wind, but have enough wind capacity to meet over 100% of power needs in suitable conditions. This can result in a huge reduction in carbon burning - eg over a windy 5 day period last year there were occasions when wind power went to around 100% and then - "The impact on the rest of the generation fleet was considerable. ... during this period all of the thermal power stations in SA were shut down, with the exception of the two units at the coal fired Northern Power station, each of which ran at about 60 per cent of full load, and one of the four units at the gas fired Torrens Island B station, which was running at about 25 per cent of full load". This extreme level of pollution reduction is clearly only going to happen in exceptional circumstances with the current wind capacity, but I assume that there will be a much more general reduction in carbon pollution when we reach the capacity goal of 50% average power from wind. If local storage can flatten out timing of the (20-25% peak) solar capacity, the utilities can reduce their reserve capacity even further, with even less pollution.

I think that affordable storage is the final piece in the solar jigsaw - I really think that we are seeing the first stages of a revolution in power generation and delivery that is similar in scope to that faced by fixed phone and postal services. It is going to change the status quo and the utility companies will have to modify their business models. They will kick and scream, but we will still end up with a much changed environment over the next couple of decades. Maybe one day we will finally be able to get rid of some of those ugly power poles.

Originally Posted by g__day

Trina have also soft launched their rather well position but (in my view 50%-60%) over-priced solutions - which are Lithium based storage plus inverter - in decent sizes and maximum power out ratings - but at $1,200 USD a kWh they did an oppsie. About $800 a kWh is the target I reckon must be hit for an economical solution.

The one I am really keen of seeing and what price point they hit are the modular 1.2kWh Enphase systems - as I love web based controlled, individually controllable and programmable storage solutions. A system with Enphase micro-inverters on any decent solar panel, plus Enphase storage on the new Enphase Gateway-S would be a killer design in my view. Time will tell as these technologies are now well less than 12 months away.

thanks for that info Matthew - exciting times eh?

Originally Posted by GrahamL

I have few friends who are completely off grid and its definately a differant lifestyle choice for sure , not thats a bad thing .

One I know generates and stores his power through wind and solar his home is just like any other to look at , his large timber shed out back was donated by another dissmantled and rebuilt , he does have a small petrol generater which rarely gets used ( washing machines and a family drain power ), hes got a recycled fuel bowser pump attached to it so he can fill his water supply tank up the hill or generate power. Milks a cow , keeps chickens and grows his own veges.

Hi Graham. I had not though of using this sort of technology to go fully off grid, but I suppose it would be possible if you could reduce the standard of living. Maybe the next generation of solar power storage will allow full and affordable off-grid without a living standard penalty.

regards Ray

[Slawomir (Suavi)]

Maybe carbon nano-tubes technology will allow for affordable means for storing electrical energy?

http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/ultracapacitor.html

[clive milne]

Does anyone else see the irony in that the same people who kept telling us that renewables were not cost competitive are now complaining that they are making fossil fuel power commercially nonviable... as if burning coal was an end in itself?

Incidentally, looking at our washing machine and fridge, the efficiency sticker on both machines is only two stars and the consumption for these devices is stated at 91 & 464 kWh per year respectively, which works out to be 1.5kWh per day. One would assume that most people prefer to do their washing on a sunny day. One would also assume that the fridge uses a good portion of its power in summer when the sun is shining. Point being that the 1.5kWh that these appliance consume is more likely to be split 50/50 between your solar cells and batteries.
Ergo: your fridge and washing machine together will reduce your battery bank to around 90% of capacity on average. (If you install a 7kWh battery)
If you cook with gas and use solar, gas or PV-heatpump for your hot water, it should be relatively easy to live comfortably with a net-zero grid draw. I don't know what advantage their would be in doing otherwise?

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by Slawomir

Maybe carbon nano-tubes technology will allow for affordable means for storing electrical energy?

http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/ultracapacitor.html

Brilliant!

Here's a couple more:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...run-on-enzymes

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...-breakthrough/

[xelasnave]

In reply to Peters question.
No fridge. It is surprising how you adjust.
I have lowered my consumption of red meat introducing canned fish.
I have a small gas stove, the $15 one they have just discontinued.
Using wood works to keep me mobile..If I want a morning cups I have to gather wood.
I wash clothes by hand using such as exercise.
I have a small 4 stoke jenny which I mainly use for power tools.
Tank water gravity fed.
Have not had a water bill or electricity bill for 20 years.
Can run a lap top small tv and charge phone.
Lighting is 240 fly as it is cheaper to but a cheap 240 light than mess around with 12 vlt systems, although these days there are plenty of 12 lights.
I am set up as if I was living on my boat..although on the boat I don't collect fire wood.

[xelasnave]

Plus solar heated water via a long length of polly pipe on the ground...boil it on fire if raining

[clive milne]

That is admirable Alex.
Whilst I do appreciate having a fridge and air conditioner up at the farm, it is completely off-grid. The battery storage has enough mojo to run a 250amp welder without breaking a sweat. The very same welder killed a 4kW generator stone dead from power draw. At no stage have we felt the inclination to replace the generator or connect to the mains that run across the property.
I also agree with the message implicit in your post; Personal happiness and quality of life are not proportional to energy consumption.

[xelasnave]

I could not be happier.
After law and real estate I wanted to live like robison crusoe.
Built my home mainly with my own timber rock and sand.
Built roads and a bridge by myself and an observatory...all very satisfying

Many would however find my life style a little harsh.

[rustigsmed (Russell)]

I think they are a great 'start' (even though its been around for a while already - this should drive prices down though). I never really considered batteries that enviro friendly but I tell you I really hate paying crazy utilities and if I was building a new house i'd love to put cash into the build at the time go off grid with everything that was feasible. yes there is a lot of ongoing maintenance and I know a lot of people don't realise its large sacrifice going full gridless.

those enzyme batteries sound pretty cool, would have been even better if Elon got onto something like that before building his massive battery plant.