Newbie looking to get my first scope

[StarCravingMad (Kevin)]

Hi everyone

New to the forum as well as astronomy. I have always been interested in astronomy and ever since I was a little boy have wanted to go into space. (I still do actually lol)

But I have never taken the step towards astronomy until now. I'm looking to get a setup that will allow me to see Deep space objects and also take some pictures.

This is the package that was recommended to me (Bintel BT200 f/5 HEQ5 Pro GOTO, 200mm x 1000mm, HEQ5 Pro GOTO URL-> http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/...oductview.aspx ), which I do plan on buying when I return from an overseas holiday in May. Now I don't understand exactly whats included, and what the specs mean.

Am I gonna need anything else to view and photograph Deep space? I already have a Canon 600d DSLR which I plan to use for the photo taking. How would I track objects while taking long exposure shots? I've done a little research but its all very new to me and theres alot of info to take in.

I'd like to hear your feedback on the package the guy at Bintel recommended me, and if you have any other suggestions of what other packages I can get.

Thanks in advance
Cheers
Kev

[OzStarGazer]

It is a great scope, but I am not sure it is the best choice for beginners. Many beginners seem to have problems in particular with the EQ mount.
Welcome to IIS!

[The Mekon (John Briggs)]

Kev,

The telescope recommended will allow you to see deep space objects and do photography, but will not be outstanding for either. Any scope will show up the bright deep space objects (Orion Nebula, Omega Centauri, very bright galaxies) but it is only as aperture increases that the detail in these objects becomes apparent. A small refractor + EQ mount is usually the choice for budding astrophotography and a Dobsonian reflector for those wanting to see deep sky. What about you look for one of each (perhaps second hand)? Most of the people here who have been in the game a while have 2 or more scopes. Just like I have one motorbike for road riding and another for on the dirt.

[StarCravingMad (Kevin)]

Hi OzStarGazer

I've seen a couple videos on youtube in regards to setting up and using equatorial mounts and I think it would be ok. I think I have a grasp on how they work.
Wouldn't I need the EQ mount to track items so I can take long exposure photos? Or is this also easily done on a Az mount?

[StarCravingMad (Kevin)]

Originally Posted by The Mekon

Kev,

The telescope recommended will allow you to see deep space objects and do photography, but will not be outstanding for either. Any scope will show up the bright deep space objects (Orion Nebula, Omega Centauri, very bright galaxies) but it is only as aperture increases that the detail in these objects becomes apparent. A small refractor + EQ mount is usually the choice for budding astrophotography and a Dobsonian reflector for those wanting to see deep sky. What about you look for one of each (perhaps second hand)? Most of the people here who have been in the game a while have 2 or more scopes. Just like I have one motorbike for road riding and another for on the dirt.

Thanks for the feedback
I would love to own more than one scope, but it will probably be a while before I do get a second one.

I have had a look at refractors and dobsonians, I was actually leaning towards the dobsonians but the package above was recommended to me by someone working at that store. I was only wanting to spend around $800 but he told me this would be best for beginning astrophotography. Do you think he was just trying to increase his sales? lol

What size aperture do you recommend? 10" or higher? I don't want to spend over $2000 I would say for my first scope, but I would like to see detail in deep space and photograph it.

Also, is it worth me modding my Canon 600d? I'd like to use it for regular photography still, can this be done? Or should I get another camera?

[Kev11 (Kevin)]

I have exactly the same set up as you mention (as well as the same first name as yours). I wouldn't mod your camera yet. I have not done more than scratched the surface of the possibilities of my 'scope because the limitation is weather: we are between the slopes and mountains in NSW and cloudiness is common although there is little light pollution (Canberra in the SE). I have averaged 2 nights viewing/photography a month in the last three years. I would say don't spend a lot upfront unless you have a good site - the 8" scope needs a permanent set up, it is too heavy to lug around the country and the EQ takes time to align.
Best of Luck
Kevin

[OzStarGazer]

8" is usually considered good for beginners, but the bigger it is the more light it lets in so you can see deeper into space.
You won't see the images of deep space through your eyepiece like you see them in the photos you take though, but I think you know.
Just buy a telescope that you will really love and doesn't frustrate you. You could also buy a small dob for the first few months to get better acquainted with astronomy and then sell it and buy a bigger and more sophisticated scope also suitable for astrophotography, or also keep the first one if you don't need the money.

[The Mekon (John Briggs)]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by StarCravingMad

Thanks for the feedback
I would love to own more than one scope, but it will probably be a while before I do get a second one.

I have had a look at refractors and dobsonians, I was actually leaning towards the dobsonians but the package above was recommended to me by someone working at that store. I was only wanting to spend around $800 but he told me this would be best for beginning astrophotography. Do you think he was just trying to increase his sales? lol

QUOTE]

The recommended scope more than twice your $800!! Bintel are honest dealers so they were probably trying to point out the only scope that comes near to matching your two requirements at a reasonable price.

[CJ (Chris)]

Originally Posted by StarCravingMad

but I would like to see detail in deep space and photograph it.

These words = lots of money!

[StarCravingMad (Kevin)]

Thanks alot for the feedback everyone

If I decide to get a Dobsonian mount, I am curious as to how you track items, especially for photography

[astro744]

This is a great package for a beginner for visual and astrophotography and do not be deterred by the EQ mount. One learns how to use it and it is needed for tracking. I would be very happy with this as my first telescope.

My first telescope was a 6" Newt. on an EQ mount many years ago and at the time I had to wait a while before I could afford the RA motor and then I got the astrophotography bug and needed a DEC motor.

Your mount has all of this but you still need one more thing and that is something to guide the telescope whilst taking the image. On my setup I invested in a separate guidescope and rings mounted to my telescope and a Barlow and illuminated crosshair eyepiece to guide with. My guidescope was a 60mm x 700mm refractor.

Nowadays you can get CCD autoguiders mounted on small refractors that ride with the telescope or you can still do it visually. Off axis guiders are common for SCT's and they are still available for Newtonians and refractors from Lumicon (Easy Guider Systems). These mount between the camera and focuser and have a small prism that is used to find and guide on a small field star. You would have to insure you have enough travel in your focuser to accommodate an Easy Guider otherwise you may not reach focus. I personally think the auto-guide CCD and small refractor is the go now.

Note with a Newtonian on an EQ mount, whether it be for visual or photo, you will get the eyepiece or camera at all sorts of awkward angles that are uncomfortable for long periods. This is more a problem for visual but it can be overcome by rotating the tube slightly when an object is in an awkward part of the sky. (You will need a small 2-3 step ladder too).

The guys at BINTEL in Glebe are great and they know their stuff and they are genuine in their advice. You could not buy from a better bunch of guys.

Try to avoid aperture fever as it is very contagious and can be spread by looking through bigger telescopes but also simply by reading about bigger telescope on this and other forums. I cured my aperture fever by buying a Tele Vue 60 and this is now my best and most used telescope. What this telescope can show will simply amaze you!

Note on tracking: An EQ mount is needed for long exposure tracking. A computerised Alt-Az mount can track but you get field rotation that is noticeable especially in longer exposures.

Welcome to IIS and enjoy your holiday and your telescope.

[SimmoW (SIMON)]

Astro, I agree with your point 're. Aperture fever! As a beginner I too am tempted to buy a (impractical, heavy) lightbucket. But your comment about your 60mm scope makes me feel more positive, that you don't always need a huge aperture, with a good quality smaller scope. Is that what u really find? Better off just having the one good quality scope that is easy to lug around...

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by astro744

Your mount has all of this but you still need one more thing and that is something to guide the telescope whilst taking the image. On my setup I invested in a separate guidescope and rings mounted to my telescope and a Barlow and illuminated crosshair eyepiece to guide with. My guidescope was a 60mm x 700mm refractor.

I think it might be helpful to point out to a newbie that there are "long exposures" (less than a minute or so, say), and then there are "LOOOONNGGG exposures" (many minutes to several hours)!

For the latter, yes you will need guide-scopes and a first-rate, perfectly aligned EQ mount, but for exposures of up to a up of minute or so, far more modest equipment can suffice.

For someone who is completely new to observing / astro-photography, there is a whole universe to discover (pun intended!) that can be captured at modest magnification, and with exposures of say 30 seconds or less (a LOT less, in the case of planetary work). You can achieve a heck of a lot with very modest equipment, such as manual pointing of the scope to acquire the target, and using a digital camera shooting through an eyepiece, or a webcam. For "short time exposures" of up to say 30 seconds or so (or longer, with practice), you can achieve reasonable results even with manual telescope control, but having an EQ mount with an RA motor drive makes it easier of course (assuming you know how to do a reasonable polar alignment), and having a full GoTo mount makes it easier to acquire your target in the first place.

I really don't see the need for a newbie to purchase a guide-scope as part of their initial rig, especially if the first few months of photography would be relatively short exposures of less than a minute or so.

I would suggest to the OP that it is probably a good idea to start with modest expectations (and modest equipment), because the chances of success first time out with a really sophisticated rig would be pretty slim!

If the mount and scope are chosen with a view to being useful in the long term (perhaps mainly for visual use, if / when you buy a more specialised astro-photography rig), even if it is not the ideal platform for long exposures of deep sky objects, then there is very little likelihood that the initial purchase would ever be wasted.

[raymo]

Hi Kevin, This is a sticky issue, with many things to consider, so don't
jump right in.
Firstly, your words "take some pictures" are important. Unless you
are going to be satisfied with very mediocre images, you will have a
heck of a lot to learn, regardless of any knowledge of other types of photography you may have. The processing of your images after you have acquired them will require several types of software, and time
spent learning how to use it. It is most definitely not just a matter of
attaching a camera to your scope and clicking away, except for the
most basic shots. You can spend many hours, or even days, on the
computer to come up with a really good image.
Secondly, if you don't think that you have the commitment to do the
above, the rig suggested by Bintel would probably not be the best
choice for you. Firstly, it is essential that early observing sessions
be enjoyable, in order to maintain your interest. This may not
happen if you have to lug your tripod outside, level it, attach 20kgs
of mount and counterweights, attach scope. Connect a power supply.
Switch on Synscan, enter your observing site details. Do a polar
alignment by which ever method you choose, and then do a star
align. If you have to bring your rig indoors after each session this
quickly becomes tedious. There is also the matter of cost. You can
add many hundreds of dollars to the price of the scope and mount.
Firstly a decent power supply, then an autoguider, and probably
a guidescope, and all sorts of other accessories you will find you
will need.
If you think you have the commitment, then go for it; it's a good
beginner's to intermediate rig.
I personally would suggest an 8" Dob [Go To or not, your choice].
You can simply carry it outside and you're ready to go. You can do
basic imaging with it. Whilst enjoying your new scope, learn more
about astronomy and imaging, and a bit further down the track
get the imaging rig that you have by then decided would suit you best.
I taught adult evening classes in astronomy, and was able to
follow up with many of the students. I found that frequently the ones
that went in boots and all, and bought large/complicated scopes
were soon lost to the hobby. One young man was so keen that he
imported a 17.5" Coulter Dob from the U.S. He used it twice.
In short, as has been stated many times, no one scope will do everything really well, so choose your compromise carefully.
raymo

[pw (Peter)]

The dob 8" is simple & great value, but you won't get your camera to focus on it. The faster short tube version Bintel are recommending is a better choice if you want to photography through it.

[astro744]

Originally Posted by SimmoW

Astro, I agree with your point 're. Aperture fever! As a beginner I too am tempted to buy a (impractical, heavy) lightbucket. But your comment about your 60mm scope makes me feel more positive, that you don't always need a huge aperture, with a good quality smaller scope. Is that what u really find? Better off just having the one good quality scope that is easy to lug around...

I have collected a few different telescopes in 30 years and have tasted larger aperture. My TV-60 complements my other 'scopes but being small and of such high quality I am really enjoying using it as I can be setup in minutes, have virtually no cool down time and also be able to pack up in minutes and yes I don't have to lug around heavier 'scopes & mounts.

Originally Posted by pw

The dob 8" is simple & great value, but you won't get your camera to focus on it. The faster short tube version Bintel are recommending is a better choice if you want to photography through it.

Good point. I remember when I started dabbling in film astrophotography I had to change focusers and I got myself a photo-visual focuser that had a removeable upper body with separate photo and visual component that could be made parfocal. It was really nice.

[raymo]

That may be the case with the Bintel Dobs, but you can focus just
fine with the SW Dobs and EQ mounted Newts. Just unscrew the 1.25"
eyepiece barrel from the focuser and the camera's T-ring screws straight onto the exposed male thread. That is how I use my 8" EQ NEWT and
my 10" Flex Dob.
raymo

[StarCravingMad (Kevin)]

Information overload, lol, just so much to soak in, thank God for internet and forums!

What do you guys think of this concept here? I found a youtube channel called "Astrophotography Tutorials" and this guy posts his recommendations on starting equipment based on his experiences for a first time astrophotographer.

He has some very nice photos but is only using a small and relatively cheap telescope, it seems he spent alot more money on his other gear.

He is using a 72mm ED Refractor telescope to the value of only $379(USD?). (Anyone know what the ED stands for, I haven't seen it yet in my scope browsing I don't think.)

The rest of the gear is actually where he spent the bigger part of around $4.5k he says.

Teleview TRF-2008 Flattener/Reducer $250
Orian Atlas EQ-G Computerized Goto mount $1400
1 shot colour cooled Astro CCD Camera $1200
Auto guider (No price mentioned)
Plus extra optional accessories such as dew heaters, Electronic focuser, Stabilizer pads,

He guarantees that his setup with a 75mm ED Refractor will take better photos than any other scope type/size.

Why would a smaller scope take better shots than a larger aperture scope, I don't get it?

This setup is way over my budget, but I am curious as to why he is pushing Astrophotography noobs in this direction.

Also would like to know if this is what Mekon meant when he said "A small refractor + EQ mount is usually the choice for budding astrophotography"

Link to his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaMQo_AnnzQ

[barx1963 (Malcolm)]

Kevin
You are coming up against the biggest issue that faces beginners in our hobby. Unfortunately there is no scope/mount combo that does it all and achieves great results. Everything is a compromise and the important thing is decide what you want to do and then work out how to achieve that.
Imaging and visual observing are very different beasts, and within those 2 broad areas there are different areas of interest that have different equipment requirements. Add to that the limits imposed by budget and you have to make some hard decisions. If imaging is what you passionately want to pursue, then definitely go for it but my advice would be select good gear for imaging. And if that is the case then the mantra is that the largest part of your budget should be spent on the mount.
If however you really want to be a visual observer but dabble in imaging then my advice is get a dob, preferably 8" to 10" and some charts etc to learn your way around the night sky. If you want to dabble in imaging then you can still have a go at startrails or time lapses and see if night time imaging really floats your boat.
The message is trying to do it all is really only going to lead to compromise.

Cheers

Malcolm

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Hi Kevin,

One reason a small but quality refractor is a good choice for AP is that they are light, they require little or NO maintenance, like aligning the mirrors (called collimation for newtonian reflectors, like the one suggested to you).

Refractors that are ED (Extra Low Dispersion) have quality glass, normally a GOOD focuser with 10:1 fine focus mechanism and are light, usually weigh about 3kgs max and therefore don't tax an EQ mount that much, meaning tracking is easier and more reliable than a great big hunk of 8" tube weighing about 10Kgs or more.

AS you have stated you want something that can show details AND do astrophotography, then the easiest way to get started is an 80mm ED refractor on an EQ5Pro or HEQ5Pro. Buy a T Ring which clicks onto your DSLR camera in the place of the lens and then this screws onto the 1.25" adaptor that Raymo mentions, or an extension tube out the back of the refractor focus tube.

I mention ED80 as it has a reasonable focal length of 600mm, good quality glass (not in the Televue league or Takahashi, but good enough) and is light, affordable ($629 for the telescope tube/finder/rings from Bintel) and can be mounted straight onto an EQ5 Pro ($1029) and a Canon T Ring is $35.

So for $1693, (plus the cost of an extension tube) you could whack the camera on it and take say 30 sec shots, and stack them to get some photos without too much trouble.

Yep, its TWICE your price, but not much fiddling with the scope needs to be done, such as collimating and cool down or a beefier mount to hold it.

One reason I have (and others) started with an 8" reflector on an HEQ5Pro is that the mirrors and tube in a newtonian are relatively cheap for LARGE aperture compared to a refractor glass lens which needs careful construction and exotic glass to make it work, hence the higher cost.

My set up is selling for $$ similar to the Bintel $1699 for the 8" F4 on HEQ5 Pro and this is around the same for the abovementioned ED80 on a less capable EQ5Pro (handles less weight).

This is about your starting point to get into easy (ish) astrophotography and EXACTLY what Bintel are suggesting as a base pack.

As the 8" (200mm) is BIGGER, it will let in more light than the 80mm and therefore you will get MORE showing for the same 30 sec photo which is about the limit before mount error, tracking and polar alignment may start to make your stars funny shapes etc.

The large mirror of the 200mm reflector means it gets more details too and has a 800mm focal length (F4) or 1000mm F5 (like mine). I can use mine visually as well as for photography, but need a special low profile focuser adaptor to reach focus with a camera. More cost, then there is autoguiding using another scope+camera+computer to keep the mount on track for longer exposures, therefore MORE $$$ and so on and so on.

You rarely keep your first scope (or at least use it to justify buying another one which is bigger/better/more capable) so if you dont want to RISK $1600-$2000 on trying to get Astrophotography, then start with a Dobsonian, use it for visual, pay about $500-$600 for it and keep it forever. Later, if you are still interested, keep or sell the dobsonian here to a newbie and save up for the above mentioned AP rig and see how you go.

It is a risk, and one most of us here who have tried astrophotography either have committed to with open wallets, or dabbled and closed the wallet and did something else, or simply stayed a visual observer.

A lot to digest, and something I went through in one of my tax return posts a while back, here which has a LOT of information and choices and suggestions on this very topic. Take a read and see what you think.

Cheers

Chris