Time to emigrate....

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by omnivorr

Starless... you're clueless... a law must be based on evidencially provable-in-court criteria... to wit: possession of the offensive object in or abouts the precinct near or abouts the time of the offence sufficient beyond reasonable doubt to be judged as evidence of guilt.... not just someone saying "he done it" because they don't like "him".

So you prefer "he has one of those so he must have done it".
and if he did not arrest him anyway because he has one, so
is certainly going to do it.

Possesion of a gun does not make me a murderer.

Possesion of a car does not make me a hit & run driver.

In addition, there is no need to resort to argumentum ad hominem.

[robgreaves]

I don't think there is any scientific basis at all in the ban. This country is just doing what the UK (where I lived) do all the time - knee jerk reactions to a) keep themselves busy, b) win votes. The inconvenience, upset, and persecution they mete out along the way on those innocents who are effected is inconsequential.

Obviously nobody in government has bothered to look up a remarkable capability of the human eye - something called blink aversion. If bright light like that from a coherent laser were to enter your eye, before you even realise it, the optic never system of the eye produces an involuntary reflex reaction of shutting the eye (that's where your eyelid comes in) followed by a head movement to look away.

I have not yet heard of someone without a blink aversion reflex staring into a green laser, mesmerised, yelling something about "my eyesight! gone!" - whilst of course keepinbg staring down that shaft of collimated light.

In the UK, schoolkids wishing to play 'conkers' - horse chestnuts on shoe laces - had to get a) parental permission, b) safety goggles, and c) hearing protectors for the 'clack' of the conkers. Next thing we hear is a risk assessment required for a brass band at a Christmas concert. Then renaming Christmas lights to 'Winter' lights to save upsetting religious minorities that moved to the UK. I gave up.

As far as the UK is concerned - it's nanny state gone mad. That's why we left (amongst other things) so it'd be a shame if the thin end of the wedge widens here in Australia too.

Sam Kekovich for PM!

Regards,
Rob.

[omnivorr]

the use of physical violence is adequately covered regardless of whatever is used as a "club" ...probably by laws many centuries old... but this is today, and consumer 'Lasers' are a phenomenon not previously abused and therefore not addressed by previous laws....

I reiterate my question.."however did people survive without them?" since you so emphatically imply their dire necessity to you now...

If I may be so bold, could I enquire if you know of a business with a container-load of them to be shifted?

a simple registration, and administration fee, provides the responsible user with unfettered lawful use of these devises..whilst the register of licensed users, and the statutes relating to their use provides the substance on which the abusers can be brought to heel... what's wrong with that???

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

So what next? Say a spate of robberies break out with cricket bats used as the weapon of choice. So we ban the humble willow?

I use lasers constantly to align optics, test optics, align AO's and measure sky transparency. But I keep forgetting, that they are now the same class of WMD that were the basis for invading Iraq....I know this to be true as our politik told me so.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by skwinty

I would also like to know where an Australian would consider emigrating to?
Perhaps the grass is greener on the other side because there's more manure there!.
Having said that if I was to emigrate I would choose Australia. Unfortunately Australia doesn't have a use for aging Nuclear Engineers.
Reason for this decision would be the fact that your have a law enforcement agency that seems to work.
My reasons for saying that are as follows.
1.How many people die in car accidents annually?
2.How many people are murdered annually?
3.How many women are raped annually?
4.How many people are robbed with intent to do grievous bodily harm annually?
5.How many people are hijacked for their cars annually?
6.The Australian dollar is sound and stable in comparison to other currencies.

Sure Australia has petty crime like everywhere else, but in my opinion you guys really have it good in Australia. Sure there are problems with dingbats who cant control their peurile impulses to shine their lasers at inappropriate targets but with a concerted effort and petitioning you can get around this problem. Even if you have to register and it costs a bit of money.
Remember, when the food is finished you cant eat the money!

And it seems chemical process engineers over the age of 50 are not wanted either , even if every single night we are told there is a shortage engineers and skilled people in the metals and minerals and engineering support industries.
I'd love to relocate to WA , SA , NT or north QLD , a remote location so long as it's permanent and residential , not FIFO , is actually my preference , but I keep getting knockbacks because I am over the age of 50 and am fat.

BTW : the weather here in Newcastle (NSW) has been awful for the last couple of weeks , and it's been windy and raining just about non-stop . Even too wet and windy for a hard-core fisho like me to bother gathering some weed (for some nigger-fishing which is what jewie fishermen do in winter) putting the rod on the roofracks, heading into the harbour or to Swansea, and wetting a line (I have wet weather gear but it's been too miserable for my liking).

My backyard is so soggy (and I'm up near the top of small hill) that I dare not drive into my garage to put the Pajero out of the weather , not that I would get bogged - it's a 4wd , but the wheels will wreck the yard. Last time I did that it took 6 months for the grass to recover.
One day I'll extend the driveway to the garage and run electricity to it too.

It's 4pm and looking out my kitchen window it's so foggy I can't see hill only 1/4 mile away.

Chance of seeing any stars tonight === zero.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by omnivorr

a simple registration, and administration fee, provides the responsible user with unfettered lawful use of these devises..whilst the register of licensed users, and the statutes relating to their use provides the substance on which the abusers can be brought to heel... what's wrong with that???

For starters the Physics is being ignored totally. At a distance, hand held lasers are simply not a hazard. Been there, done that, got "I 'bin (laden) zapped" T-Shirt.

Secondly, why should I or any other law abiding legitimate users, have to now pay a license fee for a device that dim witted politicians think is some sort of death ray, while those that don't give hoot will happily continue to annoy low flying aircraft......

Lastly, and let me be very clear on this, while the rising/setting sun is at altitude is decidedly brighter than any laser I have yet to tinker with, it's "thermo-nuclear attacks" have yet to be spun into a hazard to aviation, despite it's getting into aviators eyes, well since Pontius was a Pilot.

Yet, day in and day out, thousands a aviators around the globe grumble about old sol, (usually because you've been up all night) re-position their sun visor and get on with the business of flying the aircraft. Safety issue?
That would be a long bow indeed...

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

For starters the Physics is being ignored totally. At a distance, hand held lasers are simply not a hazard. Been there, done that, got "I 'bin (laden) zapped" T-Shirt.

Secondly, why should I or any other law abiding legitimate users, have to now pay a license fee for a device that dim witted politicians think is some sort of death ray, while those that don't give hoot will happily continue to annoy low flying aircraft......

Lastly, and let me be very clear on this, while the rising/setting sun is at altitude is decidedly brighter than any laser I have yet to tinker with, it's "thermo-nuclear attacks" have yet to be spun into a hazard to aviation, despite it's getting into aviators eyes, well since Pontius was a Pilot.

Yet, day in and day out, thousands a aviators around the globe grumble about old sol, (usually because you've been up all night) re-position their sun visor and get on with the business of flying the aircraft. Safety issue?
That would be a long bow indeed...

Here here!!

[omnivorr]

and this was not 'argumentum ad hominem'??- "
Originally Posted by leon http://www.iceinspace.com.au/vbiis/i...s/viewpost.gif
I reckon it is about time this thread was put to bed.

Leon

Alas probably true unless someone can suggest how to get
idiocy and sociopathic personallity disorder declared illegall

""

....twerp

to the issue...there is no implied "guilt" in being the registered owner/user of the devise... but the confirmation that said registered owner/user has and acknowledges full responsibility for said device and its lawful use.... and bears the brunt of the penalty thereby for knowingly breaching the terms of licence....
...but more importantly the likelihood of irresponsible twerps willynilly obtaining the devises for nefarious entertainments is somewhat reduced... and being caught in illegal possession of such gives the court a more direct route to prosecute the offender.

if you have no intent to do harm with it, why would you not accept responsible ownership of the device?? You are not being stopped from owning it.. just being asked to acknowledge that should you use it maliciously, you are aware of the penalties you will suffer if proven guilty.

Originally Posted by Starless

So you prefer "he has one of those so he must have done it".
and if he did not arrest him anyway because he has one, so
is certainly going to do it.

Possesion of a gun does not make me a murderer.

Possesion of a car does not make me a hit & run driver.

In addition, there is no need to resort to argumentum ad hominem.

[omnivorr]

but I do not accept you as final and ultimate authority on the 'physics' of it no matter how many times you repeat it.

the issue is finding a rational basis on which offenders may be curtailed from offending, and those that manage to offend regardless, may be justly dealt with.... considering that many offenders may be juveniles &/or mentally juvenile.

....and you would still claim to foresake this country over having this "harmless" thing,...which you as a responsible adult can have anyway,...

and you even have the T-shirt... gee.

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

For starters the Physics is being ignored totally. At a distance, hand held lasers are simply not a hazard. Been there, done that, got "I 'bin (laden) zapped" T-Shirt.

Secondly, why should I or any other law abiding legitimate users, have to now pay a license fee for a device that dim witted politicians think is some sort of death ray, while those that don't give hoot will happily continue to annoy low flying aircraft......

Lastly, and let me be very clear on this, while the rising/setting sun is at altitude is decidedly brighter than any laser I have yet to tinker with, it's "thermo-nuclear attacks" have yet to be spun into a hazard to aviation, despite it's getting into aviators eyes, well since Pontius was a Pilot.

Yet, day in and day out, thousands a aviators around the globe grumble about old sol, (usually because you've been up all night) re-position their sun visor and get on with the business of flying the aircraft. Safety issue?
That would be a long bow indeed...

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by omnivorr

and this was not 'argumentum ad hominem'??- "
...


....twerp

to the issue...there is no implied "guilt" in being the registered owner/user of the devise... but the confirmation that said registered owner/user has and acknowledges full responsibility for said device and its lawful use.... and bears the brunt of the penalty thereby for knowingly breaching the terms of licence....
...but more importantly the likelihood of irresponsible twerps willynilly obtaining the devises for nefarious entertainments is somewhat reduced... and being caught in illegal possession of such gives the court a more direct route to prosecute the offender.

if you have no intent to do harm with it, why would you not accept responsible ownership of the device?? You are not being stopped from owning it.. just being asked to acknowledge that should you use it maliciously, you are aware of the penalties you will suffer if proven guilty.

How much lower are you planning to descend?

"twerp" "you're clueless"

this is just plain name calling.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by rider

mmmm, I haven’t totally made up my mind about all this,- however, the idiots need to be told to go back to something constructive like graffiti or carving up train seats.

I AM hugely amazed that someone has the ability to hold the beam of a hand held laser on the cockpit window of a moving plane. These people must have incredible hand eye coordination, - sign them up for the Ausi cricket team!
secondly, those windows are high, the angle seams wrong for hitting some one in the eye.

The only possible scenario seem to be directly ahead on approach to landing . This means the perps would need to be in a very specific position on the ground. That would mean that it wouldn’t take Einstein to catch them. - Problem solved, no laws needed.

Personally, I was thinking of getting a laser prior to the current B.S, but I can do without one if it is going to reduce the chances of people dieing in crashes.

By the way the latest police media announcement (should they call them “Police-Beat” ups)
said that most attacks were with GREEN lasers.. Err, they are reasonably rare - can anyone think of a particular group that uses green lasers???.

Rider

The one that zapped me on the F3 was green.

I've been zapped by less powerful green and red lasers fishing at nighttime too.

An aspect to consider is that not all aircraft have sophisticated controls like a 737 , 747, 767 etc , and most the aircraft using Sydney are regional commuter lines where the pilot is very much in control of landings and take offs , this also applies helicopters.

One solution is to mandate pilots wear laser protection safety glasses while landing and taking off.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by omnivorr

but I do not accept you as final and ultimate authority on the 'physics' of it no matter how many times you repeat it.

Lord no, I wouldn't trust me either. A recently dusted off copy of my old Resnick and Halliday text did however come in useful

BTW another physics grad ISS contributor (Susan ?) came up with the same back of the envelope calculations as myself...a warm human eye might get a maximum flux of about 1/200th of a milliwatt @1000 metres from a 100mw pointer.

What spawned this thread of mine...and thoughts of a dash offshore...were the powers the police have in regard to the ownership of these terrifying WMD's (I know this to be true as Morris told me): "laser" pointers.

A "crime scene" can be set up for any crime that has a punishment of 5 years or more in goal, so the team from Polair one can, quite legally: kick in your front door, break any vessel or lock they choose in your house, detain you and your family, smash in a few walls...not find a darn thing...and provided they had reasonable suspicions you had said device.....simply say, in their best John Cleese voice, "sorry" and...well...bugger off from the wedding party.

Democracy at work?

I think we can do better than that.

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Lord no, I wouldn't trust me either. A recently dusted off copy of my old Resnick and Halliday text did however come in useful

...

A "crime scene" can be set up for any crime that has a punishment of 5 years or more in goal, so the team from Polair one can, quite legally: kick in your front door, break any vessel or lock they choose in your house, detain you and your family, smash in a few walls...not find a darn thing...and provided they had reasonable suspicions you had said device.....simply say, in their best John Cleese voice, "sorry" and...well...bugger off from the wedding party.

Democracy at work?

I think we can do better than that.

Sadly, based on the behaviour of the human race to date, I doubt we can.

As long as there a those who believe anything is true provided a politician,
public official or clergyman say it is, regardless of scientific evidence,
nothing much will change.

[Alchemy (Clive)]

got a bit of life in it this thread.... lot of unhappy astronomers.

Have you considered though that as a group of "scientists", you of all the people in this country although requiring a permit , will be allowed to have one ..... and theres been no discussion of a limit of power for those who do have a permit 100watts perhaps.... wouldnt hear too many complaints then hey.

the battles already over and youve lost, whether its children overboard or weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the truth isnt required.

Just make the most of it get your permit and legitimately buy the biggest one you are allowed to have.

Rolling over and copping out.... yep, fight the battles you stand a chance of winning.

[Zuts]

So this means we are no longer allowed to sell our death rays/weapons of mass destruction?

I can just imagine the furore when the Police helicopter descends on a future SPSS lights ablazing looking for 'weapons dealers'.

Geez

[avandonk]

I always thought that the astronomers major function was to collect photons for interpretation, not to distribute them!

Bert

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

got a bit of life in it this thread.... lot of unhappy astronomers.

Have you considered though that as a group of "scientists", you of all the people in this country although requiring a permit , will be allowed to have one ..... and theres been no discussion of a limit of power for those who do have a permit 100watts perhaps.... wouldnt hear too many complaints then hey.

the battles already over and youve lost, whether its children overboard or weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the truth isnt required.

Just make the most of it get your permit and legitimately buy the biggest one you are allowed to have.

Rolling over and copping out.... yep, fight the battles you stand a chance of winning.

Exactly, get over it, such a waste of energy, worry about your next upgrade and things that really matter.

[Cerberus]

well, fair or unfair it's a done deal, and with all this media coverage where Iemma looks like the 'knight in shining armor come to save us from the boogey-man-laser', there will be no excuse or ignorance from this law

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Cerberus

well, fair or unfair it's a done deal, and with all this media coverage where Iemma looks like the 'knight in shining armor come to save us from the boogey-man-laser', there will be no excuse or ignorance from this law

To whom? I think the man's an idiot.

Also we (astronomers) are no alone...the ABC news blog consensus was 99% along the line of "what? ban? are they nuts?" but this gave me a good belly laugh!

"This is getting stupider by the day!

Just can't figure which bunch of
loonies are making large enough
donations to the (labour) party to illicit
this response"

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Exactly, get over it, such a waste of energy, worry about your next upgrade and things that really matter.

Draconian laws that destroy the rights of honest people DO matter.

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by Cerberus

well, fair or unfair it's a done deal, and with all this media coverage where Iemma looks like the 'knight in shining armor come to save us from the boogey-man-laser', there will be no excuse or ignorance from this law

This does not make it a good law.

Just cause it's legal doesn't mean it's right
and just because it's illegal doesn't mean
it's wrong.

Aparthied was legal, white Australia was legal,
were these laws right or good?