One of the greatest problems in Education???

[Barrykgerdes]

The education system has been going downhill for the last 60 years and will only get worse. The people who make the best teachers are not the ones who get the best marks. But these people no longer can get into the profession because they are deemed not good enough. Nursing has a similar problem.

Government beaurocracies that run these systems do not want to need to think so everything has to be according to a schedule drawn up by equally inept staff. This idea looks good on paper but does not work as mentioned by many of the posters. They then pass the buck on to the poor teachers who are expected to teach with no authority and the prospect of being sued for trying to do jobs and solve problems that they are expected to do but have no control over

My experience on interview boards for prospective employees has shown that many interviewees while having great exam results have got absolutely no idea of what they should have learnt.

Look at the number of "maths" students that can't even add two, two digit numbers together without a calculator. When I went to school that was a caning offence.

Barry

[Mliss (Mel)]

Thanks for sharing that link Mark. I really enjoyed reading it and have shared it on facebook.

I don't deny teachers have it tough, they certainly earn every penny! It doesn't take long before you see these parents in the classrooms making a fuss. Heck, i wouldn't want to deal with them either.

I sympathise with the 'good' teachers.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Poita

It isn't all doom and gloom, if as a parent you are involved, read to your kids, get to know your teacher and be supportive, then you are maximising your kids' chance for a great education and a successful life.

........ and they have guaranteed employment waiting if they choose to become a psych or speechy . There's always a silver lining if you look hard enough.

[marki]

Originally Posted by Poita

Trust me, we demand, kick, scream, beg and appeal. Teachers are pretty active and adamant with demanding more resources, we currently have *one* psychologist for 5 schools, which is a ridiculous situation, we have gone through all of the official channels and tried to get community support as well, but to no avail so far. We also have the situation of jobs being available but no-one to fill them. Why work in the schools as a Psychologist and make a quarter of what you could in private practice? How do you get a psychologist to want to work in rural areas? In some cases the money is there, but the people can't be convinced to come. We even offered to house them for a year free of charge!

Nightstalker, I am horrified to hear of your child's experience. It is part of the reason we sought out a school with a 'special needs unit' for our child rather than mainstreaming.
When I was working my way through my teaching degree I was very much in favour of mainstreaming from an ideological point of view. As I got more experience and realised that the one semester subject was the only training I was going to get on meeting the needs of students with special needs, I realised that mainstreaming would be unlikely to work for our child regardless of the best intentions of the school or teachers. In a mainstream classroom it is extremely difficult, even if you are trained and experienced, and especially if they don't qualify for a support teacher.
She started this week and loves it, the class is great and the school is wonderful. It was the right choice for us, it may be worth investigating.

I'd agree with most of what Mark has said, the curriculum is difficult and there is very little a teacher can do to stray from it. It has been developed with the best intentions and based on solid research and great ideals of inclusion and no child being left behind etc. but it isn't working in practice. There are some positives to it, but the overly lofty 'justice' goals tend towards encouraging mediocrity. I had a situation at a private Catholic school where I wasn't allowed to give a student an advanced reader (a book that was at his level) as it would make the rest of the class feel bad as they were nowhere near his level.
Needless to say the whole 'year' at that school was on a considerably lower level than at other 'lower class' public schools I have been at.
I also find schools that draw from lower socio-economic groups are sometimes better with better relationships and support from parents, they are often more willing to not be overprotective or precious with their kids. Of course there are problem parents at any school.

It takes a strong principal and a cohesive supported staff to deliver a great education, much like in politics, it often means you have to do things that may be a bit unpopular with parents and if the media gets involved it becomes a nightmare.

It isn't all doom and gloom, if as a parent you are involved, read to your kids, get to know your teacher and be supportive, then you are maximising your kids' chance for a great education and a successful life.
A little bit of support from the parents can make all the difference and it can stop you as a teacher wanting to pack it all in!

(I apologise for the typos, this rant was typed on my phone!)

Well said, it is always a very different perspective when you are in the hot seat isn't it . We also have a special needs unit at my college, the only one for quite some distance and currently have about 50 special needs students enrolled with various degrees of disability and thus various levels of funding avialable. It is staffed by specialist trained teachers and aids and they do wonders with the kids and I mean kids with severe disabilities. As a teacher my only training in special needs was based on talented and gifted kids as that was all I was expected to deal with coming from a physical science background. Under current teacher training courses there is just not enough time nor information given to allow us to be effective under the current conditions and expectations. I would imagine at least an extra 2 years of dedicated study at a tertiary level is needed to reduce the problem, that and much smaller class sizes with good role models when teaching these kids in mainstream. The involvment of parents is essential and many of our aids are just that, volunteers who give up their time to help out. Many go on to do specialised training in this area and make a career out of it. We have not sunk as low as your system in respect to offering and providing resources for advanced learners here and we actually run gifted and talented programs and dare I say it...stream kids into groups based on their ability. We do not exclude kids from the lower groups from doing higher level studies (here it is called WACE, same as HSC, VCE etc) but we also try to cater for the high flyers. It is working well at this time. Again the positive support of parents in many roles is paramount to a healthy functioning school in which all focus can be placed where it should be, student learning, growth and advancement.

Mark

[marki]

Originally Posted by Mliss

Thanks for sharing that link Mark. I really enjoyed reading it and have shared it on facebook.

I don't deny teachers have it tough, they certainly earn every penny! It doesn't take long before you see these parents in the classrooms making a fuss. Heck, i wouldn't want to deal with them either.

I sympathise with the 'good' teachers.

Hi Mliss.

I dont think we have it tough, the pay is good now, career advancement opportunities are plentiful and working with developing minds is a great honour. I love teaching and will go on despite all the hiccups because everyday always different, everyday I learn something new and it is the greatest adrenaline rush and fun ever if somewhat exhausting at times. Nothing beats that sparkle in a kids eyes when the penny drops and they understand something new and complex, their excitment and joy is contagious. I was lucky as a graduate in that my mentor and department head who had been teaching for forty years still got excited to be walking into a classroom full of kids and used to bounce out of the office and skip off to class with a huge grin on his face. I hope to be the same at his age. My only intention in posting this thread was to highlight some deeply held misbeliefs where parents actually think they are helping their kids against evil teachers who are out to persecute their students. This is not the case, help us help your kids, it is the single purpose of education and if we all work together the outcomes can only get better. In the UK teachers at some schools used to get paid danger money (a very tidy sum each pay) just to turn up to work due to abusive and violent parents and students. A quick look at any performance tables will show how far below par that system is performing against other developed nations and it has become a system where parents have to spend large sums of money to send their kids to private schools to be properly educated. Education is essential to life success in an ever more demanding world and the only way we are going to keep up is if we all work together and don't get caught up in pointless bickering. The parents are the primary educators of their children. Your childs success is just as much your responsibility as it is the classroom teachers. Children will not learn effectively when in a disruptive environment and any parent worth their salt should do all they can to help stamp it out, especially if the disruptive child is their own. I must just be lucky myself as I said I have not encountered a great deal of parental discontent with my teaching ability or methods of classroom management but many of my co-workers who I know to be excellent teachers are dealing with it on a regular basis and it is driving them out of the system. This will be a sad loss to all involved.

Mark

Mark

[casstony]

Originally Posted by marki

Children will not learn effectively when in a disruptive environment and any parent worth their salt should do all they can to help stamp it out, especially if the disruptive child is their own.
Mark

If the parents never had the relationship/behavioural skills to pass on to their children, who can these troubled kids recieve guidance from?

Spending so much time with the kids each week puts teachers in a position (with support) to provide an education broader than the 3 Rs to kids who face a very uncertain future - it's an uphill battle but immensely satisying if you manage to make a real difference to kids from the wrong side of the tracks.

[marki]

Originally Posted by casstony

If the parents never had the relationship/behavioural skills to pass on to their children, who can these troubled kids recieve guidance from?

Spending so much time with the kids each week puts teachers in a position (with support) to provide an education broader than the 3 Rs to kids who face a very uncertain future - it's an uphill battle but immensely satisying if you manage to make a real difference to kids from the wrong side of the tracks.

Yes we just need to add "parenting 101" to the teacher education course

Mark

[casstony]

Mark, for someone with a self-confessed positive personal experience as a teacher you seem to be quite cynical.

If 'bad' kids don't get the help they need from somewhere they're likely to pass their dysfunction on to their own kids in future. Is it not a worthy goal for teachers to participate in trying to break the cycle? Or should teachers throw their hands in the air and say "That's not my job"?

[marki]

Originally Posted by casstony

Mark, for someone with a self-confessed positive personal experience as a teacher you seem to be quite cynical.

If 'bad' kids don't get the help they need from somewhere they're likely to pass their dysfunction on to their own kids in future. Is it not a worthy goal for teachers to participate in trying to break the cycle? Or should teachers throw their hands in the air and say "That's not my job"?

I am not being cynical just realistic (note the emoticons) and having a laugh to myself at your post. From my perspective the expectation of other teachers and myself having to pick up the pieces is ....well just a little too much I think, yet it is a common notion that we will do so by many governing and parent bodies and the public in general. We get abused in the media everytime some kid messes up as we obviously are to blame for out of control kids commiting crimes. Politicians use us as a scape goat when they are trying to draw attention away from their own incompetence and I like many other teachers are just a little sick of it. As I have said we have 3 full time fully qualified and registered psychologists at my college and they are kept busy all day every day. Problem is little if any information is ever fed back to us (confidentiallity etc etc) and we have to deal with all sorts of problems with no idea of what is going on which makes genuine proactive action and support for these children impossible unless you really luck out. Whats more if a student discloses information of certain types we are bound by law to report it to the child protection agency so there is little to no chance that we can promise the information a child tells us will remain secret....not the best for building relationships with troubled kids. The situation is untenable and even though you always try your best, I feel it is a losing battle at times hence my previous comment. The best we can do is encourage and support learning through innovative and thoughtful programmes, after all thats what we do best. The great thing about the college I work at is the strong sense of community. The kids are tight and really support each other and I have seen family's take these kids in, feed, cloth and nurture them without all the restrictions placed upon us. This is what is required, a stable loving safe enviroment not some bandaid placed by us to keep them from disrupting our classes. I have seen the positive effects this has had on troubled kids and the change in behaviour, outlook and willingness to be part of the class is astounding. Parents need to support teachers and be involved in the school community, it can only lead to better outcomes for all.

Mark

[casstony]

Originally Posted by marki

. From my perspective the expectation of other teachers and myself having to pick up the pieces is ......................... Problem is little if any information is ever fed back to us (confidentiallity etc etc) and we have to deal with all sorts of problems with no idea of what is going on which makes genuine proactive action and support for these children impossible unless you really luck out.
Mark

It's a matter of perspective, rather than an expectation, with the main point being that teachers are the last hope for early intervention in young lives going astray - you have an opportunity to make a difference even though it's not part of your standard job description.

I'm aware of a program in my local region in which psychologists run informal 'classes' with teachers to increase their understanding of particular conditions/problems being faced in the classroom - arming teachers with techniques should help to make classrooms run more smoothly. For example, just a little knowledge can make an enormous difference in dealing with a child having aspergers.

On a side note, 3 psychs for one school is a lot better than you get in the public school system.

[marki]

Originally Posted by casstony

It's a matter of perspective, rather than an expectation, with the main point being that teachers are the last hope for early intervention in young lives going astray - you have an opportunity to make a difference even though it's not part of your standard job description.

We all do our best to support these kids thats all we can do.

I'm aware of a program in my local region in which psychologists run informal 'classes' with teachers to increase their understanding of particular conditions/problems being faced in the classroom - arming teachers with techniques should help to make classrooms run more smoothly. For example, just a little knowledge can make an enormous difference in dealing with a child having aspergers.

We always get promised these support networks but they never amount to much. Someone turns up with a handful of photocopied worksheets and some vague suggestions which is of little value. The real fix is to go back to uni and educate yourself. I have had kids in mainstream classes so badly affected by down syndrome that they are non verbal, unable to do anything for themselves and will not respond to the spoken word. I am lost, what can I do to help this child learn to balance chemical equations or solve simple energy calculations? I cannot even hand out a word sleuth or colouring in book or paste pictures that look like....... as there is no response. It is different if you can communicate to some degree and we usually deal with that quite well.

On a side note, 3 psychs for one school is a lot better than you get in the public school system.

Yes we are very fortunate indeed but that is one of the many advantages of being independant from Gov't BS. We hire our own staff based on merit and structure as we see fit. The college has 1500 students so there is plenty for the girls to deal with.


Mark

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by casstony

Mark, for someone with a self-confessed positive personal experience as a teacher you seem to be quite cynical.

If 'bad' kids don't get the help they need from somewhere they're likely to pass their dysfunction on to their own kids in future. Is it not a worthy goal for teachers to participate in trying to break the cycle? Or should teachers throw their hands in the air and say "That's not my job"?

I remember reading somewhere that there is no such thing as a bad child just a bad parent.

I'm a great believer that we are a product of our environment.

If you instill in your children from an early age through positive and negative reinforcement those morals and virtures etc which will aid them in succeeding in society, then life would be much easier for teachers IMO as their role then predominately reverts to teaching not parenting.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

If you instill in your children from an early age through positive and negative reinforcement those morals and virtures etc which will aid them in succeeding in society, then life would be much easier for teachers IMO as their role then predominately reverts to teaching not parenting.

The point you're missing Trevor is that troubled kids tend to come from dysfunctional households. For various reasons the parents are unable to instill good values in their kids - doesn't change the fact that you're presented with a problem child - do we throw them on the scrap heap or try to help?

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by casstony

The point you're missing Trevor is that troubled kids tend to come from dysfunctional households. For various reasons the parents are unable to instill good values in their kids - doesn't change the fact that you're presented with a problem child - do we throw them on the scrap heap or try to help?

More the reason some people should not be allowed to breed, yet the Govt hands out incentives that encourages it, go figure

Ok I agree with you that no matter what we still end up with these kids but until you fix the problem you are never going to fix the outcome alas teachers only have them part time and can only do so much