What is wrong with car industry in USA

[AstralTraveller (David)]

To follow on from Bill's comments about what is required from a car. If we are going to have 'green' cars we need cars that can be driven, serviced and repaired for decades. The amount of energy embodied in a car is enormous and to throw one out after 5-10 years to get one that uses 0.5l/100km less is, I believe, false economy.

I still drive the 1981 Landcruiser troopie we bought for our round Aust trip in 1984. That's 24 years in the one car. I'm 50 and have only had 3 cars. I know people who manage that in 2 years! I know I'm lucky in that my wife works from home and I walk to work, so we don't have to wrestle it through the traffic. If we had to commute we may have changed by now.

Although it's a inconvenient around town we're used to it and it's great for our camping trips, where it really makes sense. Mechanically it is still in top condition but unfortunately the rust will kill it soon. Parting with it will be tough. I've realise one does not sell an old 'cruiser; they need to be surgically removed.

[xelasnave]

I would still be driving my 1968 VW if it had not been written off.
alex

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

To follow on from Bill's comments about what is required from a car. If we are going to have 'green' cars we need cars that can be driven, serviced and repaired for decades. The amount of energy embodied in a car is enormous and to throw one out after 5-10 years to get one that uses 0.5l/100km less is, I believe, false economy.

I still drive the 1981 Landcruiser troopie we bought for our round Aust trip in 1984. That's 24 years in the one car. I'm 50 and have only had 3 cars. I know people who manage that in 2 years! I know I'm lucky in that my wife works from home and I walk to work, so we don't have to wrestle it through the traffic. If we had to commute we may have changed by now.

Although it's a inconvenient around town we're used to it and it's great for our camping trips, where it really makes sense. Mechanically it is still in top condition but unfortunately the rust will kill it soon. Parting with it will be tough. I've realise one does not sell an old 'cruiser; they need to be surgically removed.

I bought my Pajero brand spanking new in 1992, it's still going strong and no rust (that I can see or know off), I've no plans of replacing it anytime soon despite having just under 300,000km on the clock.

[Glenhuon (Bill)]

I've owned 4 vehicles since coming to Aus in '81, only new one was a Toyota Corolla, and I won it in a raffle in '83
Present one is a Mitsubishi Starwagon people mover. Only bought that so we could put Kym's wheelchair in the back, otherwise would be still driving my Nissan Pulsar. Used to service them myself, but can't with the van, everything is too compact in the engine compartment and I don't have a service pit or ramps here.

Bill

[JimmyH155]

Why do cars have to get bigger and bigger? This Planet cannot sustain economic "growth" We cant keep taking and taking. McMillan in the 1950's said "We've never had it so good!" He was right. We have not heard the penny drop. we cant have 300 klm/hr cars, that is gross. Governments should have the guts to say no engines over 848cc (like the Mini) That car could travel at over 70mph with 4 people aboard - what more can we want. WE cannot keep increasing our standard of living.
Let all the US car makers crash, AND Holden as well with their 3.8 litre guzzlers - they are GM anyway. and as for that Hummer - dont get me started....:sadey es:

[AndrewJ]

I believe there is a company in Sri Lanka called The Venerabel Car Company (or some such similar title) that specialises in making all the parts for Morris Minors. Why? Because they are cheap, practical and can be repaired in any village workshop.

Cmon, you forgot the best bit
They have a wheel brace that doubles as a crank
No battery required for starting :-)
Especially good if you accidentally image all night

Andrew

[xelasnave]

I heard Honda have dropped out of formula 1 saving $300,000,000 a year and all they can say is f1 will become less competative...
alex

[Kevnool (Kev)]

I love my 4x4 the fuel guzzler just isnt an issue......If they get bailed out it sucs because when 1 door closes another door opens.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Cmon, you forgot the best bit
They have a wheel brace that doubles as a crank
No battery required for starting :-)
Especially good if you accidentally image all night

Andrew

Thank you. I had quite forgotten about that feature. That makes them even more practical.

BTW was there a model that came with an imagining rig?

[Kal (Andrew)]

There was an intereresting read on GM's failure on the smh website I came across here


``Toyota is built on trial and error, on admitting you don't know the future and that you have to experiment,'' Shook said. ``At GM, they say, `I'm senior management. There's a right answer, and I'm supposed to know it.' This makes it harder to try things.''
`Increasing certitude'
So while Toyota assumed it must continuously adapt if it wanted to succeed in the US, Shook says, GM believed it would forever be the market leader. Its managers brought Toyota's manufacturing methods from Fremont to Detroit. They couldn't duplicate Toyota's zen: question everything.
Wagoner, a 31-year GM veteran, was the embodiment of its culture, an apostle of incremental change. Exciting as a Saturn, quotable as an owner's manual, the one-time Duke University basketball player exuded quiet confidence about GM's future.
``I know that things will turn around,'' he told Fortune magazine in February 2006, after problems erupted at the automaker. The magazine concluded in a cover story that ``the evidence points, with increasing certitude, to bankruptcy.''

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Kal

There was an intereresting read on GM's failure on the smh website I came across here


``Toyota is built on trial and error, on admitting you don't know the future and that you have to experiment,'' Shook said. ``At GM, they say, `I'm senior management. There's a right answer, and I'm supposed to know it.' This makes it harder to try things.''
`Increasing certitude'
So while Toyota assumed it must continuously adapt if it wanted to succeed in the US, Shook says, GM believed it would forever be the market leader. Its managers brought Toyota's manufacturing methods from Fremont to Detroit. They couldn't duplicate Toyota's zen: question everything.
Wagoner, a 31-year GM veteran, was the embodiment of its culture, an apostle of incremental change. Exciting as a Saturn, quotable as an owner's manual, the one-time Duke University basketball player exuded quiet confidence about GM's future.
``I know that things will turn around,'' he told Fortune magazine in February 2006, after problems erupted at the automaker. The magazine concluded in a cover story that ``the evidence points, with increasing certitude, to bankruptcy.''

Betya Bush throws government money at them .... and lots of it ..... and they still wind up laying off millions of workers , closing plants and going into chapter 11.

The idiot still has about 6 weeks left and he can do plenty more damage in that time , before Obama takes over. The industry lobbyists will be pestering , and he probably is hoping for seat on some boards once he is out if the whitehouse.

[Kal (Andrew)]

I don't think so. Bush is a republican, and it was the republicans that voted down the rescue plan link

THE iconic US car companies General Motors and Chrysler face bankruptcy before Christmas, putting at risk millions of jobs and threatening another blow to the battered economy, after Senate Republicans blocked a $US14 billion ($21 billion) emergency lifeline for the industry.

[Kal (Andrew)]

In fact, it is the Democrats (Obama's crew) that even suggested to the white house to tap into the 700 billion that they set aside for rescuing wall street.

[GrahamL]

a good read kal

Its probably not the first company to go down that road, so large and
entrenched with history and better times ,I doubt they could even consider the industry without themselves in it.

I hope all the workers get there entitlements, but this is one buisness in its current shape that needs to be wound up.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

a good read kal

Its probably not the first company to go down that road, so large and
entrenched with history and better times ,I doubt they could even consider the industry without themselves in it.

I hope all the workers get there entitlements, but this is one buisness in its current shape that needs to be wound up.

Or split up and sold off.

Are american workers guaranteed under state and federal laws of getting full pay out of their accruded unused leave , severance pays , pensions (like our super sorta I think) and other things or do they just go to the back of queue after the banks and shareholders as general creditors of the wound up company ? in which case they can count themselves lucky to eventually get cents in the dollar of what is due them....and in the USA the dole only lasts a matter of months then you are cut off too .... I am not clear what happens if you are still unemployed after the dole is cut off in the USA - guess you turn to begging or crime and live in squats and boxes and in become a non-person.

I've a sneeking suspiction that it is not certain the workers layed off will get their entitlements (in the USA) if a company declares bankruptsy or chapter 11 and goes under , but the high executive will still bail and take their golden paracutes with them.

[xelasnave]

Folk at the top of an organisation often think they know "everything" and as such present a view as if they were God and their infalibility is greater than his.
So often folk at the top "call the market" not apparently from research but from mere opinion...
But imagine the pressure on management... they have a meeting on this or that and those who attend must present an idea that says they deserve to be in management... given that idea is behind management proposals become straw grabbing episodes.
Consider a MacDonalds management meeting... what can you do...the market says Maccas exsist because they deliver a burger and a shake when you step and ask at the counter for same... well look at macas these days..you can not do that anymore and the simplicity of their business is now extremly complex... someone has determined the old system needed fixing so now many macas have a order taker walking down the line of folk waiting...who under their old system would not be lining up...to take the order radio it back so they may be able to do it like they once did.
This situation comes from not preparing the burgers and having them ready...some fool manager convinced the other managers that his new system was better... no doubt he idea gets up because he can sell it to the other managers present ..whoever... but any fool would that the burgers are still "prepared" they now just sit in "draws" and are not assembled until the order is received... no fresher no flasher but with more effort and convelution to produce a very simple result.

Management overlooks the core desire of the macas client that got them started... burger fries and shake immediately... that system guarantees profit... but they try for other parts of the market and as a result macas now have a range that is outside what their market clearly demanded and rewarded their system.

I doubt if the car industry is different... each manager has to have an idea or why have him...so when he presents his drink holder in the new model idea sure it is well received by the other managers cause it is sold well to them... but a drink holder may only be relevant and a good idea to the group assembled... the core of the market simple demands a "good" economical, reliable nice looking car... but drink holders and other "ideas" cost time and money...and so the price goes up, the ease of production becomes more complex and so the prroduct drifts away from the core of market focus...in my humble opinion.

I often wonder how well a car would sell if it was cheap and the must haves are not there..
My VW did not have a fuel gauge it was so basic...but it ran well, did the job and was excellent transport... had no where to put a drink but got me to where I was going.
The aspect of selling add ons after the main car sale is seen as an area of high profitability and so they pursue this aspect but it is faulse economy..for they forget they are selling cars not goodies...and this aspect of car marketing has a great deal to do with why the us makers are in the poo..in my humble opinion... new features often dont just come with the car..as is the case more often with Japanese manufactures... but are there to work this aspect in approach to marketing...

So we get in many businesses a desire to take more and create "new" markets to increase turnover but one must remeber there is a profitable level and often seeking to extend turnover decreases profitability and in time viability.

alex

[xelasnave]

There was a Simpsons episode where Homer was put in charge of "the new car"... well he approached it on the basis of what he wanted not what was necessary for a transport vehicle...the company went down because the car was ugly, expensive and impractical...one wonders how the simplicity of a cartoon could be lost and not applied to the real world.

alex

[xelasnave]

Herny Ford's original premise was pretty good really... and he was spot on when it can to colour.

alex

[Glenhuon (Bill)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Folk at the top of an organisation often think they know "everything" and as such present a view as if they were God and their infalibility is greater than his.
So often folk at the top "call the market" not apparently from research but from mere opinion...
But imagine the pressure on management... they have a meeting on this or that and those who attend must present an idea that says they deserve to be in management... given that idea is behind management proposals become straw grabbing episodes.
Consider a MacDonalds management meeting... what can you do...the market says Maccas exsist because they deliver a burger and a shake when you step and ask at the counter for same... well look at macas these days..you can not do that anymore and the simplicity of their business is now extremly complex... someone has determined the old system needed fixing so now many macas have a order taker walking down the line of folk waiting...who under their old system would not be lining up...to take the order radio it back so they may be able to do it like they once did.
This situation comes from not preparing the burgers and having them ready...some fool manager convinced the other managers that his new system was better... no doubt he idea gets up because he can sell it to the other managers present ..whoever... but any fool would that the burgers are still "prepared" they now just sit in "draws" and are not assembled until the order is received... no fresher no flasher but with more effort and convelution to produce a very simple result.

Management overlooks the core desire of the macas client that got them started... burger fries and shake immediately... that system guarantees profit... but they try for other parts of the market and as a result macas now have a range that is outside what their market clearly demanded and rewarded their system.

I doubt if the car industry is different... each manager has to have an idea or why have him...so when he presents his drink holder in the new model idea sure it is well received by the other managers cause it is sold well to them... but a drink holder may only be relevant and a good idea to the group assembled... the core of the market simple demands a "good" economical, reliable nice looking car... but drink holders and other "ideas" cost time and money...and so the price goes up, the ease of production becomes more complex and so the prroduct drifts away from the core of market focus...in my humble opinion.

I often wonder how well a car would sell if it was cheap and the must haves are not there..
My VW did not have a fuel gauge it was so basic...but it ran well, did the job and was excellent transport... had no where to put a drink but got me to where I was going.
The aspect of selling add ons after the main car sale is seen as an area of high profitability and so they pursue this aspect but it is faulse economy..for they forget they are selling cars not goodies...and this aspect of car marketing has a great deal to do with why the us makers are in the poo..in my humble opinion... new features often dont just come with the car..as is the case more often with Japanese manufactures... but are there to work this aspect in approach to marketing...

So we get in many businesses a desire to take more and create "new" markets to increase turnover but one must remeber there is a profitable level and often seeking to extend turnover decreases profitability and in time viability.

alex

In the beginning, there was the Plan.
And then came the Assumptions.
And the Assumptions were without form,
And the Plan was without substance.

And darkness was upon the face of the Workers and they spake among themselves saying, "It's a crock of s**t, and it stinks."

And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and said, "It is a pail of dung, and we cannot live with the smell."

And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it."

And the Managers went unto their Directors saying, "It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide it's strength."

And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying to one another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."

And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them, "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful."

And the Vice Presidents went to the President saying unto him, "This new plan will actively promote growth, and vigor of the company with very powerful effects."

And the President looked upon the Plan, and said that it was good,

And the Plan became Policy.
And this is how s**t happens.


Bill

[xelasnave]

I like it...
alex