Bored so I united the forces..

[xelasnave]

WOW I did not think the peer review would be that easy...

so no more objections can we now take it that my ideas are now accepted.

alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by DJDD

alex, i just read a bit on the 'push' theory of gravity but could not get to the end...

so, is the premise that gravity is caused by inelastic collisions of particles (gravitons? light? ultra-mundane corpuscles?) with bodies such as planets, stars, people, and that the attraction of two bodies is really a result of shadowing and uneven pressure?

if so, and if the interactions are inelastic, would we not see a lot slow collision particles as their energy is lost during collision?

anyway, no real idea what i am talking about...

cheers,
DJDD

Dear DJDD...

I am so sorry that I appeared to ignore your post but for whatever reason I simply missed it...how I dont know.

As to your first question the shadowing and uneven pressure is the way I believe things work.

As to question two I expect that may be right but slow in that world probably would not be slow.
This is speculation and given in my humble opinion but I suspect there are many particles available to do the job and even if we could detect whatever particle is responsible for the conditions I suggest how to measure a single interaction I can not imagine how it could be done.

As all point out one needs proof supported by math and observation..well I have no math in support of anything I believe but look at various things and draw my morosopic conclusions...

I do think that the relationship between electricity and gravity would not be difficult from my observations of the sprite thing.
I see the "elve" as the first contact the flow has with our atmosphere.. only part of it of course because most simply passes by and thru the Earth without contact.

However the "elve" seems to become a sprite and continue on as lightning... and so in that I suspect that may be the relationship between gravity (the imbalance in flow of everything and resulting variations of flow pressure) and electricity.

I see the cloud lightning relationship in this context as the same as a wire (the cloud) in a genny interfering with the flow and "harvesting" the flow as electricity... I can draw similar when looking at a solar panel...but that is me... it is a mere belief.

I thought space has a physical grip as it were and so that is why I believed the space craft would slow up.

I see what is called weightlessness in space not as an absence of gravity but the reverse in that as the flow is not shielded from any direction it "holds up" from every direction which we interperet as weightless.

I beleive the Sun's Corona is the out flow of the Sun interacting with the "flow" and this interaction results in the higher temps in the Corona than could reasonably be expected.

Again sorry for missing your post.
AND never worry about not understanding stuff that does not mean one has to try and think about stuff.

My thing is I believe that General Relativity does not grasp the issue of gravity although it is very useful of that there is no doubt however I feel it will never allow us to unite the forces.
The only reason such interests me is because DrA was so interested in doing this and failed.
I also believe he was on the money when he glimpsed the apparent necessity to have a pushing force to hold the Universe in place as it were..I feel he pulled back because the observations (by Mr Hubble) suggested the Universe was expanding so he felt he was on the wrong track.
I beleive he was close because attraction does not cut it...attraction demands that we entertain "dark matter" and to me that seems fanciful..why should we live in a Universe that has matter undetectable other than by inference when in a "push universe" we do not need dark matter. The razor pushes me to the push side it is at least simple.

As am I.

They enlist dark matter to expalin why the outter stars orbit faster well if you think of it the ammount of matter one would have to place outside the galaxy to arrive at such a propostion would be enormous... and even without a math proof feel confident that if anyone worked it out what I say will be found inarguable...

Folk think I am crazy and mostly I must agree with them because to change a paridime such as attraction is impossible but having approached all matters on the premise of this "flow" I can make a pretty good Universe...one that I can not make any other way.

[xelasnave]

I had to post without edit because the battery is near flat I will tidy it up later but I hope you at least understand what I say and remember that is my humble opinion it is not a theory but a set of beliefs and ideas
alex

[TrevorW]

Alex think less take up another hobby maybe drink more it hurts my brain too much otherwise

Thanks

[xelasnave]

If I drink that is when the gravity really takes over.
Yes my brain is numb but what do you do after you have done "everything"....?
alex

[leinad (Dan)]

All very interesting Alex. I've just been reading for the past few hours this theory of push gravity and it is indeed logical in a sense, but fails in many other respects. Could Push and Pull Gravity co-exist?

My physics and maths are lacking, so please be patient with my questions or comments.

A simple explanation I read for those trying to grasp the concept for the first time:

From: http://www.topology.org/sci/grav.html

Quote "If you are a non-physicist who wants to understand the principle of push gravity, imagine you have four people around you, one in front, one behind, and one on each side. Imagine that they are spraying water on you continuously with fire-hoses. As long as the water flows continue, they balance each other and you stand still. Now suppose someone steps between you and one of the hoses. Then the hose on the other side will push you over because the force is not balanced. The person walking through a water-stream has created a flow shadow on you. This looks a bit like they exerted a force on you because you are pushed towards the person who blocks the water. The more water they block, the more unbalanced force you feel from the opposite direction. Now if the other person has hoses pouring water on them too, you will block one of their water streams and they will move towards you too. So gravitational attraction can be caused by a continuous flow of particles in the universe in the same way. This force will travel at the speed of the particles, of course. In the shadow theories of gravity, the reason you feel a gravitational pull towards the Earth is because you have a lot of gravity particles raining down on you from the sky, but the particles which come to you through the Earth are thinned out by interaction with the Earth. Therefore you feel a net push down on to the Earth because the Earth is shadowing you from gravity particles." End Quote





If stone and water are equally pushed from the outside to the surface of the earth,
Why does the stone always drop to the bottom of the lake?

[xelasnave]

"If stone and water are equally pushed from the outside to the surface of the earth,
Why does the stone always drop to the bottom of the lake?"

Because stones dont float.

I honestly believe that there is no pull... this is curious indeed and believe me folk think this can no be so... but I say this where you think you see attraction it will be explained much easier by a push approach.

Push takes the force of gravity away from God so folk wont like it...The Church nailed Newton's mate who was into it prompting him to reply when asked waht was the force of gravity ..."the force of gravity is the force of God".... Dr A changed zip in this regard because GR happily needs no force... funny no one thinks this is strange and will happily say the math makes it work or it is the fabric of space as if that answers such a stupid question when raised by a fool who believes a force needs a "force" and simply does not occur as if by magic.

My math is not flash because I dont bother with it these days but the fact is if there is anything in what I suggest the math can be extracted... but when I get into thinking how to handle it I am struck by the unmanagable complexity of setting out what is going on...

I am not worried about proving it I feel comfortable that when using push one can find a way it will make something work...and I apply the approach to many things...lens, planetary motions, momentum, electricity, magnetism and although I am still learning atomic science.

Push is at a great disadvantage to move forward because it is taken that it is a chalenge to GR and therefore will not be taken seriously but GR says zip and without a mechanical explanation of gravity the forces will never be united...now as slack as my approach is at least it suggests how energy works to give us magnetism, electricity gravity and maybe even nueclear fission (I have my ideas on fussion also which to me seem more reasonable than the current explanations of their results) ....

Once you can "see" the activity or flow in the most remote place and then realise that the particles you find wizzing thru that spot will be found everywhere one can get an idea of the enormous availablity of particles everywhere... when one can see such in your minds eye it is impossible to accept that there must be a substantial pressure irrespective of how small a "force" you attribute to each particle....

As to gravity on the conventional approach we have GR... it lacks logic in my view...firstly the principle of equivelence is neat but is a poor observation to base an understanding that all things pertaining to gravity will flow from such... in my humble opinion.

The example with hoses is fair but if we are to really grasp how it would be think of every star in the Universe with its own hose...instead of water each star spurts out a small particle in the same fashion as the water example... how many "star" hoses are we being hit by right now...better still to help the imagination when outside under the stars think about where the light of each reaches and then realise you may only be seeing 2000 when there are billions upon billions contributing to this flow...

Now could this flow cause a pressure such as I say? or does this flow have no pressure whatsoever as current science suggests...

Look at the elves and sprite thingy and yu can see it with little imagination that the flow is hitting the atmospere (as an elve) and down to the cloud (sprite) and down to Earth as lightning....it really is clear to me.

Thanks for you interest and please point out anything you feel needs review .... we need to get this right all humanity is counting upon it.


alex
alex

[xelasnave]

The eather was thrown out much too hastily...
They think the gravity b probe mission proves frame dragging but it also proove an eather... they will fight against it but really that is the way it is...
AND the fact is space is absolutely jam packed with particles such as eather suggests and science keeps finding more...so it is a little cute to keep saying there is no eather...fit everything into an eather or the universal pressure I suggest then things will make sence... I cant take it further but no doubt others will keep pushing the idea.

alex
alex

[leinad (Dan)]

If this push flow is photonic(from stars); I have one example that needs explaining; Our solar system.

Wouldnt our star have a greater 'push' influence and therefore this force cannot be equal in all places at once. The stars energy, or push force would be greater with distance of star to planets. Eg solar winds.
So how can the planets maintain their orbits along space-time fabric with respect to our star's gravity(pull).

Much like this push force down towards the surface of the earth. this makes it sound directional; how does a push in all directions explain this?

I can see how the explanation of gravity causes a pull towards the center of the Earth. How does push explain this pull(or push if you will) towards the center of the Earth?, if the flow is from all directions. This makes no sense with imagining this..

Hope that makes sense.

[xelasnave]

I applaude your enquiring mind.
No doubt our Sun seeminly will create the situation you find difficult to get around... however this flow is infinite and any local contribution will be maybe measurable or observable..Solar Wind for example clearly marks out the Heliosphere within the flow ..that is why the space craft will slow when they are really out in it... what I am trying to say is this flow is universal and the contributors every body in the Universe...
The space time "fabric" is in my view a math description of this flow really...if you see a bend in the space time grid think of the bend happening because the flow is greater in the direction of the bend... the flow is what I believe "bends" the grid.

Probably thinking of it as a directional thing is misleading becasue what we really witness is variations in flow pressure ... the push is not only down but omni directional it is the intensity that varies.

As to your last question think about the Earth travelling thru space..rotating..in the flow... it is a shield unto itself and one would think the greatest shield would be the center because we deal with the widest part or the greatest part the flow must travell past... try to see it multi directional and then consider each direction individually... consider how the one under consideration got to that point...what it travelled thru... think of standing by a mountain...it will shield a little and is then thought to have its gravitational influence..as it does but not via attraction but because it is there"...

Imaging is the only tool I have to think, imagining is useful... I do accept it is not for everyone and some folk simply do see in their mind...fortunately my imagination is fantastic...I can build anything in there and having built it it will function in "real time" and as such one can think tradgjectories how things must interact, orbit etc.

Think of it like I said... the space time grid is sort of a map of flow pressure (for mine I am sure Dr A never thought some fool like me would ever suggest such) but it fits well for me...

AND so as not to up[set folk as I do... I know what you think and that is ok...my only concern is that you do not take me any more serious than I take myself...and if I am wrong what does it matter... if I am right by the time anyonme realises the idea will be someone elses...

Its not new it is not mine property...
I like it because one does not need dark matter...dark matter takes science into the land of nonsence and someone should protest it...well I protest it because it is not needed ..accept to support the notion that attraction in fact is real...it is not.

alex

[leinad (Dan)]

So can you explain again how this relates to a blackholes?

Isn't a blackhole caused by gravity collapsing on itself; and therefore light is attracted towards this collapsing center of gravity, ie the event horizon and blackhole, where matter and light cannot escape.

I can see how this makes sense with 'pull'; how does this work with push? One can imagine a water drain and its effects.

[xelasnave]

My problem with a black hole is I have never seen one so forgive me if my ideas are flimsy ...its density presumably would be great and so in a push environment the shielding would be great...if not total...therefore the push could be cut off entirely from one direction leaving incoming flow to have it all its way.

In my "thinking and imaginative moments I have thought that a body such as suggested by the black hole concept may not even exist as we think it to be...
I do like the notion of two heavy stars ib a tight binary orbit such that their sheilding produces a region of near absolute shielding...such an arrangement would make it easier to generate the jets associated with black holes.

The problem I see with attraction with a black hole is how does the black hole communicate its message of gravity...we have looked at this and folk dont see it could be a problem but I wonder how a message can leave if gravity is as strong as suggested....I know it is space that is "bent" but I have read that with the Standard model they see there are messenger particles employed...there is speculation upon the "graviton" well lets say we have one...how can it escape from the black hole to tell the outside universe anything...would the particles relied upon for communication be able to leave? well if no even light can escape I feel the matter is perplexing.

Maybe a black hole where all the particles finally come to rest????


Thank for your questions it helps take my mind off other stuff...

alex





eas are off beat.
If we have what is considered a black hole

[netwolf]

A breath of fresh air, something to stir the imagination and question the universe again. Mirror mirror on the wall which is the theory to bind them all..

I will need some time to read it again and again before I can think up a a suitable question to ask.

By the way DrA also did much of his experiments in his mind Gedanken.. Before formulating any math. So critcism based on the absent of math is to early in the game. I think we restrict ourselves to much to the realms of what is 'known' and dare not to question it. People say maths is the language of the universe, I say its just an expression one of many. Sometimes words, music and much else can be used to express the same, it just needs others to take the time to try to understand.

[xelasnave]

Thanks for the encouragement Fahim.
I feel right or wrong it matters little for it is the thinking about stuff that is important...I have no doubt that future generations will look at some of our ideas (supersymetry for one and dark matter for another) and laugh at our lack of ability to move past a certain level of thought.

Now thats not to take away from all who do wonderful work but I feel the folk who come out and say "black holes hold the key to time travel" or specualte upon worm holes on the basis that you can fold space the same way one can fold paper need looking at... so often I read stuff and it seems to me crap but couched in big words most just nod and dont ask "what the heck is this fellow actually saying..." and if you did ask you would get an answer " he is saying nothing there is not one piece of meat in this article"

Gee I hope you have some questions... I need to think about something other than the humans in my life... as for my part I have hope for this idea because it has held my attention for so long.

Thanks again

alex

[xelasnave]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1219032649.htm

Read this and you will see that folk dont like any alternative to the standard model.
To me it seems that in an area that any view must be as good as another such a determination to hold one "theory" above other to their absoloute exclusion is unhealthy for progress.

AND remember it is the standard model that says we need dark matter and I know there are sums to support it but does not something sound off when one suggests that most of the Universe is invisable and that there is a "mirror" world that houses counter parts to all particles ... the math proves it but I find it terribly difficult to accept ...too much like religion that approach and I dont have enough faith for either.

alex

[xelasnave]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1127142128.htm

I was saying this when everyone else was still on the "its his biggest blunder trip"...

The obvious step is to realise there is no attraction all we observe is in fact is a "push" ... so the good news is if folk go my way they take little away from the great man...if anything I have only followed his insite.

Now if you look at article in the previous thread it simply cuts off any further thought making the great man wrong again...well I think his greatest blunder may have been his greatest insite....

alex