[Alex] Waiting for an apology? No, not really. There's every chance and a bit more that I'm a product of those invasions. It'd be like a snake eating its tail - pointless.
What I'd like to see - and it does not apply to the aboriginal people as a group/nation/tribe - is trying to sort out the problems of all underprivileged people.
In saying that I mean no disrespect to Darryl. My fear is that we could be turning into the same society and with the same aims as our forefathers. The aboriginal people of this country are not pets to be pampered, they are people - just like everyone else who is lucky enough to live here. As others have said: Let's get rid of the 'us' and 'them' mind set and simply try to sort out the problems - whatever they might be.
For Example,If my Father,Stole your father's Car,
Should I, apologise to You,for his Wrongdoing.
to use an analogy like that, is in fact to trivialise a very serious issue. yeh except this car was worth gadzillions and quantizillions of dollars, now and long loooong into the future, this 'car' also had 40 000 -100 000+ yrs worth of sentimental value and goodwill, the taking of this 'car' (i'm not sure if we are talking about the awesome lie of terra nullus? or the stolen generation here anymore? - the title reconciliation would imply the former?) had much more serious implications than a simple stolen car?
re stolen generation, and yes poor white unmarried mothers had the same done to them for just as long - more than a whiff of religion in that situation - what about the poor english war orphans that were forcibly and unceremoniously shipped out to oz at end of war - theres plenty of examples, and they almost invariably involve poor powerless people as alluded too already, the original australians problems, is actually at least half to do with that?
I have read, and i strongly agree with this appraisal, its as if after so long in isolation from the rest of the world, the culture shock of white colonisation was so great and shattering, that the indigenous people, in the traditional and culture purity sense of the word, like a car struck bird found by the side of the road, never ever recovered from it, to this day. the sadness too great, and too deep
I have read, and i strongly agree with this appraisal, its as if after so long in isolation from the rest of the world, the culture shock of white colonisation was so great and shattering, that the indigenous people, in the traditional and culture purity sense of the word, like a car struck bird found by the side of the road, never ever recovered from it, to this day. the sadness too great, and too deep
This is absurd. Is sadness genetically inherited? Should I be suffering posttraumatic stress syndrome because my father fought in PNG? This is just institutionalising victim hood. This is just providing excuses for people not taking responsibility for themselves and their families and community.
re stolen generation, and yes poor white unmarried mothers had the same done to them for just as long - more than a whiff of religion in that situation - what about the poor english war orphans that were forcibly and unceremoniously shipped out to oz at end of war - theres plenty of examples, and they almost invariably involve poor powerless people as alluded too already, the original australians problems, is actually at least half to do with that?
The "stolen generation" is a romantic myth. There are no documented cases of aboriginal children being removed from their families for anything other than welfare reasons. For abuse and or neglect. There have been court cases on this. Lowitja O'Donoghue, for one, has publically admitted that she had far more opportunities after being adopted out and "looked after". The Rabbit Proof Fence movie was a great story, but it was also a work of pure fiction.
As to the poor powerless people, I think homeless, the mentally ill and abused children need to be looked after if we are to consider ourselves civilised. One of the sad trends of today is to de-institutionalise the mentally ill so that they roam the streets, and to leave aboriginal children in situations of abuse.
i digress, but it is in the case of mental illness's of which they used to call melancholy, manic depression ect. is certainly inherited in many situations
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argonavis
Should I be suffering posttraumatic stress syndrome because my father fought in PNG? This is just institutionalising victim hood. This is just providing excuses for people not taking responsibility for themselves and their families and community.
again an attempt trivualise, downplay - should they just pull their socks up you reckon?
As to the poor powerless people, I think homeless, the mentally ill and abused children need to be looked after if we are to consider ourselves civilised. One of the sad trends of today is to de-institutionalise the mentally ill so that they roam the streets, and to leave aboriginal children in situations of abuse.
i'm glad you are mentioning the effects of systemic institutionalising of people, and its results
As stated earlier there is more than a whiff of religion in what went on in the past re the removal of children from their parents. But it didn't just happen to indigenous people, it was applied to any mother who "they" thought wasn't fit to bring up a child in the "proper" manner. I know several people who were taken from the UK as children, brought to Aus and supposedly orphans, that found out many years later that they had a Mother, Father and siblings still living there.
It goes on today still, but nowadays its done by a bunch of Uni students working in DOCS (Educated Idiots as my old dad called them) who have no more experience of life and raising kids than what they have learned from textbooks (or a Bible). Of course there should be an apology, but lets also try and learn from past mistakes and stop it happening again.
Of course there should be an apology, but lets also try and learn from past mistakes and stop it happening again.
Bill
No hope of that.
The national media recently gave coverage to a pack rape case. The victim was moved to foster care away from the community where she was abused.
She was returned to the community and pack raped again. This seems to be the pattern in these remote communities, with consequent widespread STD's.
It was reported that the foster family no longer want anything to do with the system that returned her back to her "community". They put themselves out to care for her and give her a stable home life. There is nothing more cruel than to then remove children from this situation back to a situation of abuse.
But at least she was not "stolen" from her "culture".
I can not wait to hear what Mr Nelson (...being a good leader he will hear the membership before stating a position...as he said on the ABC...and that’s good I suppose if you see only a bright side) hears from the meeting when he will hear the views of the party.
He is between a rock and hard place politically..
I suspect he knows what is needed but knows what is expected.
It will test him and I wish him good luck and nerves of steel.
I hope the folk drawing the "sorry" paper will have the sense to make it un contentious, as if they dont, it means they are seeking to cause disruption rather than deal with the matter, so guys do not stick something in to stir up your opponents please...
“We are sorry for any wrongs done” is the message finally…so be careful about the recitals by way of introduction.
So many things in this thread point to a misunderstanding of the situation and I expect those who present as authority on what is right may never have ever talked to anyone whole feels an injustice has been done. So it could be hard for them to understand the importance.
I have been out the mission at Tabulam this morning but could not bring myself to talk to folk out there as to how they feel..simply because I already know that getting a "sorry" means so much to them... its not just the folk who were immediately effected that will be cheered up.
I was going to get some real opinions and some real cases for all of you here but I decided not to…
There are folk who simply can not entertain a compassionate approach and feel indigent that somehow their society may have ever been in the wrong.
If you cant see “It” there is not point in trying to convince you of anything because your mind is set..and I have no problem with that ..everyone is entitled to their opinion.
There are many around this area who would complain that they should not be expected to say sorry...but would not tell you what their ancestors did to the folk around here... How could you not be sorry for herding a family off a cliff with men on horses… did I see that? no I did not..but it seems that it is history not far to our West…
There is more that we could be sorry about but at least if the Government does say sorry it may show that at least some folk care enough about the wrongs others wont admit and simply say they are sorry there was a wrong...
I did nothing wrong to them but I am sorry… mind you there are a lot of things in the world I feel sorry about...
I see that there are other cases in the world but heck we can be a little different and go a long way to fixing this...we are in control
I used to have arguments with my Son and so many times.. I would say I was sorry so we could move on… I had not done anything wrong. but he thought I had and it was the way he felt that was more important to me than carrying on simply making a big man of myself and proving that I was right and he was wrong...
Why folk feel "why should I take the blame stuff" I can not get... its not about that... it is about paying a respect to someone that your care about, how they feel about what has passed between you or yes even your ancestors...
This has been a very interesting thread and it is so good that folk at least care enough about this issue to form an opinion.
I see both camps of thought because of the wide circles I mix in (when I mix) you can imagine around here you get the extremes … 5th generation land holders and those who had the land in the first place.
I question the expectations placed on a people that for 20,000 years lived a particular life style and then have everything changed for them… they are just expected to toe the line or that’s it.. really I would think that after 20,000 years it would take many generations to catch up with our modern world… I don’t know how long it took our ancestors to move from hunter gathers to farmers and townsfolk but I think it was much longer than the time the original inhabitants of this country have been exposed to the end result.
I don’t know what upsets me the most the lack of understanding or the lack of compassion from a society supposedly based on a religion who’s leader told us above all ..”to love thy fellow man”… why not practice what we preach…
AND when you say the Lord’s prayer and get to the “forgive us our trespasses " bit …think long and hard about what that really means.
again an attempt trivualise, downplay - should they just pull their socks up you reckon?
Yep. Wallowing in the past does not help the present and future.
It has been found that African countries that get the most aid also have the poorest economic performance. It's the "Paris Hilton" effect - if some one is providing financial support, then it doesn't matter how dissolute or irresponsible your behaviour - you can waste aid money cause there is always more - there are no consequences. It's also called sit down money.
For all the billions, and it is billions I believe, spent on Aboriginal welfare in this country there is not a lot to show for it. The old paternalism did at least provide an opportunity for some indigenous australian to achieve something with their lives. Noel Pearson grew up at Hope Vale, a Lutheran Mission.
Will I would like to know how one could move the plight of these folk.
I often wonder how a young man with poor education opportunities can make it in our society..some do in spite of adversity but those cases are rare really... do you think more money needs to be spent on education for example.
There was a center at Tenterfield where they would come and fix cars and learn stuff, like how to opperate chain saws and do work but it was closed as the previous Government stopped funding that ..and I thought it was so good..now those young fellas have nothing to do ..no sckills .. and no one will give them a job out there.. if you cant get work should not the system provide welfare?
I think often those who call for folk to stand on their own two feet because they did often fail to appreciate the special un recognised advantages that they may have enjoyed to be able to stand on their own two feet.
I have done this..well I did it.. the why cant you approach..well finally I stopped that because I realised I was very privledged by a very poor persons standards.
There are many problems we all know that but I can not see that one can fix it with a tuff stand up or fall approach.
The "stolen generation" is a romantic myth. There are no documented cases of aboriginal children being removed from their families for anything other than welfare reasons. For abuse and or neglect. There have been court cases on this. Lowitja O'Donoghue, for one, has publically admitted that she had far more opportunities after being adopted out and "looked after". The Rabbit Proof Fence movie was a great story, but it was also a work of pure fiction.
As to the poor powerless people, I think homeless, the mentally ill and abused children need to be looked after if we are to consider ourselves civilised. One of the sad trends of today is to de-institutionalise the mentally ill so that they roam the streets, and to leave aboriginal children in situations of abuse.
So very not true! read my earlier post, these kids were taken at 2 and 3 day old while still in the hospital. Neglect and abuse had not even a chance to happen before they were whisked away.
Neglect and abuse were just some of the smoke screen excuses to raise lighter skinned aboriginal children in a white society.
Many of these kids suffered abuse at the hands of thier foster families, many were nothing more than slave labour on pig and cattle farms
I could site dozens of examples not just my immeadiate family.
Ive worked for years amongst the aboriginal missions in the NT, QLD and SA.
I also have a brother who is a church missionary who specializes in Aboriginal education, both of us have developed a first hand knowledge based on fact not romantic myth.
Some people believe the Holocaust never happened, man never landed on the moon and that the earth is flat.
Great Post Kokatha Man
Reconcilliation is something that happens every day, by the actions small and large that we all take.
This Sorry apology is long over due and we can all breath a sigh of relief and get on with being Australians together, each of us working in our own way to make the world a better place in big or small ways.
I live and work in NE Arnhemland, I work with the Yolngu people of Arnhemland both delivering and receiving Astronomical education.
I have just come back tonight from a performance by the "Chooky Dancers" performing their version of "Zorba the Greek" to an audience of 300 plus Yolngu and Napaki (all of us mob) from the town. These dancers have attracted an audience of over 1/2 million people on U-tube
Nights like tonight make me proud to be a part of this community .
The second photo in particular symbolizes the unity that can be achieved in the community
Did you know that it was only in 1927 that the Queensland Government repealed the law that allowed you to shoot any Aboriginal that trespassed on your land?
how many fences must i sit on before someone puts up the barbed wire...
"sorry". for so long it had been avoided as its such a loaded word. I personally am in favour of our leaders using it as a form of empathy but not appology as none of those who were responisble are around. If it unites the nation then its a great thing to do! anything that unites the nation is!
I am sure the relevant pollies have looked over the legal ramification a thousand times and feel safe in thier upcoming statement.
What happend to the indiginous aussies was an attrocity and need to me... not so much rectified but acknowledged. its far to late to do anything about those who are to be held accountable for what happened.
and so ends my "for" side of the arguement... (so thats a yes for "sorry")
as for the other side...i can see what M110 is saying too. I have been mugged on a sydney train for a bunch of aboriginals and lost my wallet over it, I have had an attempted mugging in hyde park by a couple of asian guys, and i have been threatened by lebanese guys so many times its not funny... not once have i been attacked of threatened by any... hmm white aussies (for want of a better term). and just to let you know I do not hold entire races responsible to these events. I dont hold all aboriginals responsible for me being mugged on the train nor do i hold all asian races responsible for what happened in hyde park... I dont even hold all lebanese people responsible for on continually on going verbal threats is recieve for them. why? all of us are individuals, we are not the same as everyone in our particular race. if violence is your way then its your choice. can anyone here claim to have been attacked by a whole race of people?
I am probably the most racially tollerant person I know and have friends from many different cultures.
so an sympathetic or empathetic sorry sounds sound to me and i am all for it
These training centres are a great idea as long as they are staffed by someone who's been there, done that. To shut them down is very short sighted.
I hope things have changed over the past 20 years. It was about that long ago I applied for a project officers position with the then CYSS. It was training young, mainly aboriginal, kids with the skills I had learned in my trade as a fitter and the things I've picked up other areas. The one question that surprised me was "How would you treat aboriginal kids" My answer was of course "Same as any other, I'll show anyone what ever I can. I've trained many apprentices over the years". Oh but aboriginal kids are different, your apprentices are motivated. My answer "Thats part of my job to motivate them, show them the advantages of having these skills" Didn't get the job, guy who got it lasted about 12 months (actually he ran off with my ex brother in laws Mrs .) As far as I know he had no trade skills, but a piece of paper saying he'd done some Uni course in youth work.
I knew quite a lot of the people who worked in that area through my ex wifes brother, out of the lot I think Stuart was the only one who had actually been trained in a trade (Hand binding of rare books) and worked at it for 10 years before getting his degree in Psycology. Maybe the mix of scholars and practical folks has got better over the years, but I somehow doubt it.
and by the end of the week my mates and I would enough for the Saturday movies.
.) As far as I know he had no trade skills, but a piece of paper saying he'd done some Uni course in youth work.
