The Federal budget, it wasn't all bad

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by Hagar

You are making Abbott appear inteligent.

With a statement like that Hagar, you are showing your ignorance of the facts. Yes, Tony Abbott appears to be a fool in front of the camera, with that I can agree.

I don't have an opinion as to whether or not he can run the country based on his media appearance. What I do know however, is that Tony Abbott is a very intelligent man. For a start he has a Bachelor of Economics, a Bachelor of Law and is a Rhodes Scholar with a Masters in Arts. This doesn't include his other accomplishments, which are also fairly impressive. And if you don't think that is intelligence, what do you think is an adequate level of intelligence? Furthermore, Julia Gillard is no slouch either and has a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Laws. Does this mean they have the qualifications to run a country, I don't know, as what qualifications DO you need to run a country? I haven't got a clue.

So, before making such sweeping statements in trying to prove your point, please check your facts first.

And no, I am not advocating a position here, other than to say people make such sweeping statements without verification of facts or indeed provide any real understanding based on empirical evidence to support their position.

Cheers Peter

[AndrewJ]

One question...did the NBN really need to cost as much as it did or is the cost spot on?

What is the cost of anything that big.
( And its a pi$$ in the bucket relative to future returns )
I agree with Mike, we need to at least get the fibre in the ground in a consistent and managed way whilst we can still afford it.
The electronics at the ends can be changed/upgrade as time/money permits, but at least get the basic "cabling" done as an integrated system.

As an example ( referencing other peoples bugbears ie roads )
For those in Melb, I live near where the Sth eastern Feeway
cuts through Burke, Toorak and Tooronga rds.
18 odd years ago when Kennet got rid of the traffic lights so he could get more money for the tollway tender, he only bridged the Feeway.
There is a railway very close to the Feeway, but to save money, they didnt bridge that at the same time.
Now we cant afford to not fix it, as its stuffing up traffic and trains,
but we cant afford to fix it, cos its now too expensive
and will disrupt too much.
Shoulda just done it right first time.

Andrew

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Channeling Maxwell Smart: If only he'd used his intelligence for niceness instead of evil!

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

With a statement like that Hagar, you are showing your ignorance of the facts. Yes, Tony Abbott appears to be a fool in front of the camera, with that I can agree.

I don't have an opinion as to whether or not he can run the country based on his media appearance. What I do know however, is that Tony Abbott is a very intelligent man. For a start he has a Bachelor of Economics, a Bachelor of Law and is a Rhodes Scholar with a Masters in Arts. This doesn't include his other accomplishments, which are also fairly impressive. And if you don't think that is intelligence, what do you think is an adequate level of intelligence?

So, before making such sweeping statements in trying to prove your point, please check your facts first.

And no, I am not advocating a position here, other than to say people make such sweeping statements without verification of facts or indeed provide any real understanding based on empirical evidence to support their position.

Cheers Peter

Just because he has a bucket full of scolastic awards does not really stand him on a thrown to run a country. He has dificulty getting through any public appearnces without stuffing up.
As it stands at the moment he is probably the biggest bonus the Liberal party could give to the Labor party.

As for my vote, undecided as yet. Labour party lies and broken promises makes it hard to vote Labour even though I have always voted Labour in the past. Take a look at the oposition, enough said. Minor party or independant, couldn't lower myself that low, a vote for any minor party is just a final vote for one of the above major parties anyway.

OOPS nearly forgot. : help:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Just because he has a bucket full of scolastic awards does not really stand him on a thrown to run a country. He has dificulty getting through any public appearnces without stuffing up.
As it stands at the moment he is probably the biggest bonus the Liberal party could give to the Labor party.

As for my vote, undecided as yet. Labour party lies and broken promises makes it hard to vote Labour even though I have always voted Labour in the past. Take a look at the oposition, enough said. Minor party or independant, couldn't lower myself that low, a vote for any minor party is just a final vote for one of the above major parties anyway.

OOPS nearly forgot. : help:

Oh Hagar, you didn't disappoint, pretty much the emotive response I expected, with little in the way detail or facts to support your position.

What is required to run a country properly then? Everyone would probably have a different opinion regarding that question, so how do you determine who is right? But, that is the very nature of politics and why I don't make sweeping statements about this person or that, this party or that, as inevitably I would be wrong in someone else's eyes, or look silly simply because I hadn't checked my facts.

I am not a swinging voter, never have been. What I do hold is a very firm view based purely on ideology and not based on particular characters, as inevitably they just come and go. If that ideology is changed or becomes corrupted then I may change my viewpoint. Furthermore, I do not try and convince others of my ideological position, it is mine, others can determine their own course, they don't need my help. That is the fundamental principle of democracy.

So, unless someone comes along with a real vision for the country, then my position may never change, because I doubt that will ever happen. And, how would I know anyway?

Oh dear.....I think I am getting too old or too cynical to care anymore.

Cheers Peter

[GrahamL]

What happened to the third comandment ?


3. Posting Topics
Please avoid topics about global warming, race, politics or religion

and the 11 pages tolerant of thrashing it?

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

What is the cost of anything that big.
( And its a pi$$ in the bucket relative to future returns )
I agree with Mike, we need to at least get the fibre in the ground in a consistent and managed way whilst we can still afford it.
The electronics at the ends can be changed/upgrade as time/money permits, but at least get the basic "cabling" done as an integrated system.

As an example ( referencing other peoples bugbears ie roads )
For those in Melb, I live near where the Sth eastern Feeway
cuts through Burke, Toorak and Tooronga rds.
18 odd years ago when Kennet got rid of the traffic lights so he could get more money for the tollway tender, he only bridged the Feeway.
There is a railway very close to the Feeway, but to save money, they didnt bridge that at the same time.
Now we cant afford to not fix it, as its stuffing up traffic and trains,
but we cant afford to fix it, cos its now too expensive
and will disrupt too much.
Shoulda just done it right first time.

Andrew

Can we really afford it at this point? It is a huge expenditure for a very small percentage of the population who in a lot of cases choose to live where they live.
I choose to live where I am and put up without town gas being available but I don't see anyone trying to get gas to my house. The answer is buy bottled gas at many,many times the price of town gas. Heat with electricity which is more expensive than town gas.
I fail to see the need for an internet connection at the speeds that are being thrown around. I manage quite well on ADSL and managed OK on dial up before that.

These things are nice to have but wont keep you warm in winter, put food on the table, take care of our old people, provide onging work for our youth but might just get a vote or two which might equate to a pollie and his hangers ons pay rise.

Best I remember.

[blink138 (Pat)]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

What happened to the third comandment ?


3. Posting Topics
Please avoid topics about global warming, race, politics or religion

and the 11 pages tolerant of thrashing it?

if people can keep a civil tongue then there is no harm, and I for one am enjoying it
it is amazing that so many like minded people are so different ideologically!
pat

[AndrewJ]

Gday Hagar

Can we really afford it at this point?

Could we afford Myki ( now approx 3% the cost of the NBN )
Could we afford the Desal plant???
Can we afford the NDIS????

I manage quite well on ADSL

The NDIS is going to chew through more money than 10 NBNs
esp when the lawyers get involved challenging what
someone is entitled to.
Im not disabled and no one near to me is, so is that a reason for me to say its no good and i dont think its good?????

At least the NBN will provide a framework to move forwards on.
If everthing had to be cost justified in the short term,
and provide a 15-30% return on investment before starting
nothing would get done.

Some things should just be done.

Andrew

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by Hagar

These things are nice to have but wont keep you warm in winter, put food on the table, take care of our old people, provide onging work for our youth

Sorry Doug, but that is very narrow minded thinking.

StrongmanMike is right about the need for fast broadband, although I don't really care, but what he failed to mention and what you have failed to take into account is the opportunities that a fast broadband service will bring.

What opportunities, I hear you say? Well, precisely, I don't know, as my crystal ball is broken, but I do know that the Internet has brought lots of opportunities to companies and individuals, so it isn't a stretch to say that a fast network would bring greater opportunities, particularly in the area of education and medicine. Take for instance your ability to search for and order astro gear from overseas. Yes, there is good and bad with this, but it illustrates the opportunities that offered to OS companies to reach broader markets. Ebay, has given individuals lots of opportunities too.

We simply don't know what opportunities and new ideas that will spring from the fast broadband. I remember when the first PC started appearing the general consensus then was that it would do everyone out of a job, the paperless office, etc. It indeed put some people out of a job, but created many more. As with all advances in technology it brings opportunities and its problems as well. The problem with our society is we expect the Government to do everything for us, but it is up to the individual to take responsibility for themselves. For instance, I have a severe disability, although it isn't obvious, and was told by all the specialist and rehab that I will never work again, but I do, as I went out and found a job I could actually do and I am very successful at it. Fortunately, I am strong willed and thus motivated to overcome the difficulties.

I do see a need for fast broadband, and although I am at odds with StrongmanMike on its implementation, I am all for a fast Internet. Whether I see it in my lifetime is questionable, again, my crystal ball is broken.

Yes, your points are valid to a degree, but, if you take that narrow minded view, you only create short span solutions. You have to create the infrastructure to provide the long term solutions that will be able to provide the necessary resources to look after the vulnerable in our society.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Just because he has a bucket full of scolastic awards does not really stand him on a thrown to run a country.

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

What is required to run a country properly then? Everyone would probably have a different opinion regarding that question, so how do you determine who is right?
.....
So, unless someone comes along with a real vision for the country...

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

But, unless the Oz culture of political apathy changes, sadly, we will continue get the politicians we deserve.

I think a large part of our problem is that we are supposed to elect someone, or at least a very few people who have the wisdom and knowledge to know what to do on every issue, have the good of absolutely everyone at heart and are totally self-sacrificing in the pursuit of noble ends. Well Aragon son of Arathorn may have had these qualities but in the real world they just don't exist. I'd like to see people have a much more direct influence over decisions than just voting for tweedle-dum or tweedle-dummer every 3-4 years. That of course put a lot of responsibility on the general population to be informed but I see that as achievable. There is certainly a lot of people on this forum who would take the time to work through issues thoroughly if they thought it meant they could influence the course of events.

Another issue is that the size of the public sector relative to the private sector means that governments are a bit like a tug boat trying to control a bulk carrier. Sure they can push it around a bit, especially if it agrees to be moved, but if it sets a course and goes full steam ahead the poor old tug will just be dragged along. The private sector is motivated strictly by profit. Social good (which, yes, does occur) is just a by-product, but so is social harm (which also occurs in spadefuls). I've long since decided that we need to fundamentally change the structure of society rather than just squabbling over party politics. Yes, it does mater to some extent who is in power but really it's a bit like debating which way to face the raft as you approach a massive waterfall.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

I'd like to see people have a much more direct influence over decisions than just voting for tweedle-dum or tweedle-dummer every 3-4 years.

Good points David. Maybe one way this could be improved is through 4 year fixed terms, instead of the ability of Government triggering an election when it best suites them. Another solution would be to get rid of preferential voting, where a party can get in even though they didn't get most of the primary vote, that simply sucks! Third and final point, get rid of compulsory voting, where donkeys vote because they have to (well actually they don't have to vote as such, just have to roll up and get their name ticked off), but they do and have no real idea who they are voting for anyway. If pollies had to EARN our vote, then things may be different.

Sadly, this won't happen.

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

Sorry Doug, but that is very narrow minded thinking.

StrongmanMike is right about the need for fast broadband, although I don't really care, but what he failed to mention and what you have failed to take into account is the opportunities that a fast broadband service will bring.

What opportunities, I hear you say? Well, precisely, I don't know, as my crystal ball is broken, but I do know that the Internet has brought lots of opportunities to companies and individuals, so it isn't a stretch to say that a fast network would bring greater opportunities, particularly in the area of education and medicine. Take for instance your ability to search for and order astro gear from overseas. Yes, there is good and bad with this, but it illustrates the opportunities that offered to OS companies to reach broader markets. Ebay, has given individuals lots of opportunities too.

We simply don't know what opportunities and new ideas that will spring from the fast broadband. I remember when the first PC started appearing the general consensus then was that it would do everyone out of a job, the paperless office, etc. It indeed put some people out of a job, but created many more. As with all advances in technology it brings opportunities and its problems as well. The problem with our society is we expect the Government to do everything for us, but it is up to the individual to take responsibility for themselves. For instance, I have a severe disability, although it isn't obvious, and was told by all the specialist and rehab that I will never work again, but I do, as I went out and found a job I could actually do and I am very successful at it. Fortunately, I am strong willed and thus motivated to overcome the difficulties.

I do see a need for fast broadband, and although I am at odds with StrongmanMike on its implementation, I am all for a fast Internet. Whether I see it in my lifetime is questionable, again, my crystal ball is broken.

Yes, your points are valid to a degree, but, if you take that narrow minded view, you only create short span solutions. You have to create the infrastructure to provide the long term solutions that will be able to provide the necessary resources to look after the vulnerable in our society.

Peter, How is this narrow minded. You are allowed to have your opinion and in the event of it differing from mine, my opinion becomes narrow minded. I just don't see the need for the NBN and so far you haven't been able to quantify a reason for it either. If I say that in my opinion we can't afford it I am wrong because your crystal ball is dirty. Come ON.

Unfortunately at the moment we can't even afford the crystal ball let alone the expenditure of nice to have solutions to problems we are yet to discover. We are all in a position of debt and if the media is correct it is something like $14000 per adult Australian.
Where do we draw the line and surrender to the fact we as a country just can't keep spending what we don't have, spend only to support ourselves and be mindfull that at some point we have to repay the debt.

Again if the media is correct the take up rate for NBN is quite low and the cost is significant. I can send data faster than I can create it on ADSL so why would I bother upgrading any further. Crystal ball stuff again. I am about to retire and am afraid the only crystal balls out there will be mine and they will get some sort of a kicking over our countries debt into the future. I hope to be fully self funded into the future and cost you all nothing more than a smile but believe me I am worried, I have taken a couple of hits already and think the crystal ball is cracked already.

:confused2 :

Remembered this time..

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Have I mentioned that the full fibre to the home NBN is the way to go and worth voting for?

:thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: just for grumpy Doug (meant nicely)

[toc (Tim)]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

Hi Tim,

So let just forget about it and go and get pissed instead.

Cheers Peter

No real offense taken here Peter Honestly they are not worth getting upset about. Apologies if I came across as someone who is that easily offended.

Ill drink a beer for you

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Have I mentioned that the full fibre to the home NBN is the way to go and worth voting for?

:thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: :thum bsup: just for grumpy Doug (meant nicely)

So many times that your throat must be sore.

: bashcomp::jawdr op::figh t::c ool:

Grumpy? Who says I'm grumpy. Leave me alone, I' rubbing my crystal ballso I can see what comes next.

[Deeno]

Here's a vision!

Next really severe drought we might totally run out of water but, we will be able to watch all about it in full definition on the tele!

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

Here's a vision!

Next really severe drought we might totally run out of water but, we will be able to watch all about it in full definition on the tele!

Or the authorities will be able to transfer massive schematic diagram files in a hurry, have instant high definition video conferencing all around the country to bring the best minds face to face in real time instead of having to fly them around, information will travel faster and decisions will be able to be made faster in emergencies etc etc

The LHC needs it, The SKA needs it, Australia needs it COME'ON!!!

Hey the moon landing was pretty cool in crappy grainy B&W wasn't it?...imagine what it would have been like in Colour high definition...ahhh

Besides if we can reduce our carbon emissions, droughts will be less of an issue, if we don't they will become worse and worse, the science tells us this and the World is moving in the direction of addressing this as Australia has = more reasons to influence your vote in Sept


Mike

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Peter, How is this narrow minded. You are allowed to have your opinion and in the event of it differing from mine, my opinion becomes narrow minded. I just don't see the need for the NBN and so far you haven't been able to quantify a reason for it either. If I say that in my opinion we can't afford it I am wrong because your crystal ball is dirty. Come ON.

Unfortunately at the moment we can't even afford the crystal ball let alone the expenditure of nice to have solutions to problems we are yet to discover. We are all in a position of debt and if the media is correct it is something like $14000 per adult Australian.

You don't see the need for broadband and at a personal level neither do I for that matter, but I don't argue that just because I don't need it the money should be spent elsewhere, that there are more pressing issues (and there always are), just because it has no benefit for me. That is a narrow minded view, sorry Doug.

I haven't researched this matter, as I have no real interest in it, and therefore cannot give definitive reasons, however, a quick search of the Internet has abundant articles as to why it should be built.

Here is an excerpt from one such article, and it isn't even about Australia, it is international in scope, so we shouldn't lag behind:

"Survey respondents foresee the main benefits of ultra-fast broadband as including future strategy, staff productivity, staff location and customer relationship management. Around 70 percent of respondents said they would consider investing in collaborative tools, voice-over IP and cloud-based applications and services to leverage the benefits of ultra-fast broadband." full article here: http://www.med.govt.nz/sectors-indus...dband/business

I agree that it is likely most people have debt, but "we are all in a position of debt" is an assumption Doug, sorry. I don't have any debt, and haven't done for a long time. And no, I am not rich either, far from it. I learned to managed money well, and I learned the hard way, in my early twenties. If I cannot afford to pay for something immediately, or quickly, if I had to borrow money, then I simply don't buy it. I never borrowed more than I could pay back quickly.

Whilst there is a significant amount of debt in Australia, there are a significant amount of deposits too. As at July 2012, which is the last figure I saw, Australian banks had deposits totally $16 billion, according to the RBA. So, not everyone is broke then.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by toc

No real offense taken here Peter Honestly they are not worth getting upset about. Apologies if I came across as someone who is that easily offended.

Ill drink a beer for you

I didn't think you did, just needed to clarify to be sure. Some people can't take a joke. I sometimes forget that. Won't stop though.