127mm ED Triplet for $1199 at VTI Optics

[Ian Flowes]

Lewis, I am not into astrophoto yet.
I have read many, many reviews and non mentioned soft focus. They did say, there was a slight hint of ca and the focuser isn't exactly first class but still good enough to use.
You yourself say it is subjective so I will go with these reviews, not your subjective comment, as these numerous reviews could not be wrong.
As for the comment that today there are two type of glass used in the ED127, where is the proof? Sound more like someone fertile imagination.
So more myth than fact!

[johnt (John)]

Originally Posted by wasyoungonce

I'm leaning this way....I suspect the Chinese still have a way to go with QA and ES does rejects some OTAs. I don't know I have heard this before but it's speculation.

However, one thing ...you will not be told by the OEM and no one in a position that knows is saying! So if your not sure...buy the ES127 you cannot go wrong for the price.

Maybe Astro Optical should re-start selling the Prostar units with tricked out ML focuser etc? I reckon they'd gets sales these days and indeed..or better yet the new 150mm ED's...Hmmmm.

The Prostar version will no longer be available, according to my conversation on the phone with Steve (MyAstroShop). I was also told that it was no longer possible to get those "Special Lenses" that he was getting for the "Prostar" (the special and more expensive ($3000) version of the ED127). There was also a mention of the Japanese maker (at the Chinese factory) having gone back to Japan, and that was the main reason for the "Special Lens" no longer being available. So, maybe this "Special Lens" was mainly the result of the more work, and expertise that went into making those lenses, by that Japanese lens maker, rather than just the sort of glass that was being used. That special lens was also probably the lens that may have been on all of the very early ED127 versions. So, all this seems to support our "guess", that at the present time, there is probably only one lens, for both ED127, and the Explore Scientific ED127.

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

+1 as well Ian .
soft... cokc
soft .... lillies
soft ..... focus ? yes .
Being an owner of a Fluorite refractor soft focus is real ,
My SKY90 does it well , nice , my FS60C did it , my ED80 almost did did ( FPL53 ) true if there is a better light transmitter than Fluorite ??? lets all retire ..
Brian.

Originally Posted by Ian Flowes

Lewis, I am not into astrophoto yet.
I have read many, many reviews and non mentioned soft focus. They did say, there was a slight hint of ca and the focuser isn't exactly first class but still good enough to use.
You yourself say it is subjective so I will go with these reviews, not your subjective comment, as these numerous reviews could not be wrong.
As for the comment that today there are two type of glass used in the ED127, where is the proof? Sound more like someone fertile imagination.
So more myth than fact!

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Ian Flowes

...but these independent reviews speak volume that this is a very good scope and the glass is always FPL51. There is no mention of soft focus anywhere in these many unrelated reviews and these reviews are trust worthy. I own one too and over a few good nights, I look hard and long and I have to say, there is no soft focus issue. There was a slight hint of ca at high mag for bright objects.
Overall, I am a happy owner and user.

Allan, can you point us to the source of your information about new scopes with new glass coming out from NG?
I doubt the accuracy of your statement, as even the correct ES models are using the same FPL51 glass.

Interesting comments Ian, You state you own one of these scopes and notice some mild CA yet are not prepared to accept Allans thoughts on this scope without proof perfect. You will believe the majority on other sites and while this thread has come an gone over the years with review after review the comments here seem to carry no weight.
You state you are yet to venture into Astrophotography and I can assure you if your scope shows mild CA it might be worth not pursuing this with this scope as the results will only be elevated to new highs.

I have seen several of these scopes over the years and to be honest they were just crap. CA, sloppy focuser and crappy lens cells. There has been a few good ones but they were few and far between.

[johnt (John)]

I guess the question about astrophotography or simply viewing is quite relevant here. If its mainly astro photography, where aperture can be traded for extra exposure time, then the choice is much greater, so going for "small" and "very high quality" seems the way to go. But for those of us that just want to use a Refractor for Viewing, then the attraction for that extra aperture, for extra brightness, perhaps traded for a little less quality, is more luring.

So, what about this question for those that think the ED127 is not quite good enough: If it has to be a "Refractor", for "Viewing", with "around 127mm aperture", for say around $1200 (the price of the VTI ED127), then if it's not going to be an ED127, then what else instead ? Is there something else for that sort of money that is better?

I know, someone could say that you don't need 127mm, someone else could say go for a SCT etc. etc. But, I guess the question here is more specific: "Refractor, Viewing, 127mm".

[wavelandscott (Scott)]

Originally Posted by johnt

So, what about this question for those that think the ED127 is not quite good enough: If it has to be a "Refractor", for "Viewing", with "around 127mm aperture", for say around $1200 (the price of the VTI ED127), then if it's not going to be an ED127, then what else instead ? Is there something else for that sort of money that is better?

I know, someone could say that you don't need 127mm, someone else could say go for a SCT etc. etc. But, I guess the question here is more specific: "Refractor, Viewing, 127mm".

I am not an expert on this scope but have looked through a few...they are okay for visual but not perfect. You have asked the question in such a way so that the answer is likely not much is better in that price size range...from the scopes I have looked through I think it is a stretch to think about them as an APO...I thought APOish but in the ones I looked through I could see some color...enough to be distracting to me but I am a bit picky that way...if color is not an objection, you might look at some Achros for similar bang for buck...like some of the Ishtar scopes. In either case I prefer a reflector view (or quality APO) to what I saw through similar scopes. This is only my opinion and your experience may vary.

These scopes are not bad and for the money do represent good value but don't confuse them with world quality APO gear. It is all a matter of expectation and intended use. Wide field deep sky low power stuff should be okay. High power may be a bit disappointing depending on you experience and expectations...

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Interesting comments Ian, You state you own one of these scopes and notice some mild CA yet are not prepared to accept Allans thoughts on this scope without proof perfect. You will believe the majority on other sites and while this thread has come an gone over the years with review after review the comments here seem to carry no weight.
You state you are yet to venture into Astrophotography and I can assure you if your scope shows mild CA it might be worth not pursuing this with this scope as the results will only be elevated to new highs.

I have seen several of these scopes over the years and to be honest they were just crap. CA, sloppy focuser and crappy lens cells. There has been a few good ones but they were few and far between.

What about those on this forum who have one and swear by them?
Do those people not count?

[wasyoungonce (Brendan)]

John start off with something more modest, a 127 is a big scope, maybe an ED80.

Doug, agreed the 127ED has deficiencies the focuser is one however this is the same as sold on the ES127 and they sell these by the "container loads". Many people replace their focusers even on TAKs. I like others put on a ML.

Sure there are things not to like about the 127ED but IMHO visual...excellent for the dollars paid, astrophotography....as I said I sent my lens cell back and got a new one and I'm happy with the performance of this. Using a FL reducer....makes this scope a very nice light gathering bucket, not perfect but pretty good, enough for price. On this point the OEM promised an OEM FR/FF unit that never arrived...very disappointing...however they would have made a 2" unit in any-case which I probably wouldn't buy. Many users have the WO Pflat IV which works very well with this scope.

The rings, they are pretty good, much better than sky-watcher types. I'd like rings with a bigger flat "land" so you could have 3 screw points on the bottom to fit Losmandy dovetail plates ...I purchased Parallax rings for this.

The Lens cover...made to stop bullets...too big and easy to crash into the lens when putting on off, I don't use it. The Dew Shield...too heavy for purpose.

The finder scope..it's ok has an amici prism so it's right way up but it suffers from edge astigmatism...probably from the prism.

But hundreds upon hundreds of users of this scope and it's variants...I cannot hear a resounding din of discourse. It's probably all up to what you expect for this price..if you expect TAK perfection ...then keep saving.

[wasyoungonce (Brendan)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

What about those on this forum who have one and swear by them?
Do those people not count?

Well I don't swear by them...they are good for price and I get the performance I expect and a little bit more but I did put in extra money on a focuser etc. It's a matter of expectation. I like my images...when I produce reasonable ones, which is rare and I have produced plenty of bad ones.

But like all doing astrophotography it's a lot to do with processing and cameras and the skill of the user. Gary Honis is proof of the scopes performance.. Would I prefer a TAK...sure...but not the bill so it's all about what you expect and what you are prepared to pay.

Same with cars...want Porsche performance and reliability...buy a Porsche.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

I'm very happy with mine. It's great value for money.
Personally I'm not out to make scientifically perfect images and I can live with a little CA and "soft focus".
If I had the dosh I would have gone for a Tak, but this is what I could afford so I'm going to make the very best of it.

I totally agree with you Brendan.
The scope doesn't make the imager, experience and skill does.

[allan gould]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

I'm very happy with mine. It's great value for money.
Personally I'm not out to make scientifically perfect images and I can live with a little CA and "soft focus".
If I had the dosh I would have gone for a Tak, but this is what I could afford so I'm going to make the very best of it.

Now thats being a realist JJJ. Enjoy your scope and use it well. Some of the images you have produced so far are excellent.

[Astro_Bot]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

I dug out my fringe killer. Going to see if it makes any difference to those big blue halos that this scope is prone to make on those really bright stars.

May I ask how that fringe killer worked out?

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

Nik, I'm using a "finder guider" with my ED127. It keeps the weight down tremendously.

Do you use the regular finderscope mounting or a more robust rings/accessory rail arrangement?


@ anyone: Would it be fair to characterise the Hioptic ED127 as a semi-APO?

[LewisM]

By all means enjoy the scopes for what they are, but just be warned there are numbers of less than stellar performing ones out there. As I said, roll the dice, you may get lucky, or you may throw your money away.

The one I had was inferior to anything I had used up to that point and since. Perhaps the aluminium tube ones are different, because the carbon fibre tube ones have issues.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Astro_Bot

@ anyone: Would it be fair to characterise the Hioptic ED127 as a semi-APO?

Yes it's a semi-apo, for two reasons:

Chromatic aberration: blue is slightly out of focus from the other wavelengths and;

Spherochromatism: while the scope may have a high strehl in one colour (.95 or better) spherical aberration brings the performance down at other wavelengths.

It's still a decent scope providing you get a good sample, but if you pay a multiple of it's price you can get a full apochromat with high strehl across the visual wavelengths and further.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Originally Posted by Astro_Bot

May I ask how that fringe killer worked out?


Do you use the regular finderscope mounting or a more robust rings/accessory rail arrangement?


@ anyone: Would it be fair to characterise the Hioptic ED127 as a semi-APO?

TBO, I've not tried it out yet.
I'll give it a whirl tonight on Saturn, as I get a fair amount of blue on it.
I attach the finder guider to the handle via a dove tail attachment.
Definitely a semi-apo.

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Originally Posted by wasyoungonce

Well I don't swear by them...they are good for price and I get the performance I expect and a little bit more but I did put in extra money on a focuser etc. It's a matter of expectation. I like my images...when I produce reasonable ones, which is rare and I have produced plenty of bad ones.

But like all doing astrophotography it's a lot to do with processing and cameras and the skill of the user. Gary Honis is proof of the scopes performance.. Would I prefer a TAK...sure...but not the bill so it's all about what you expect and what you are prepared to pay.

Same with cars...want Porsche performance and reliability...buy a Porsche.

If it's all the same Porsche and reliability are an oxymoron

[Astro_Bot]

Thanks Tony and JJJ.

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

What about those on this forum who have one and swear by them?
Do those people not count?

My statement did not exclude the few that were reasonable. See below:

I have seen several of these scopes over the years and to be honest they were just crap. CA, sloppy focuser and crappy lens cells. There has been a few good ones but they were few and far between.

It really depends on what you call reasonable. Based on cost at around $1200 they are a bargain and may be worth investing in repair but if the lens and lens cell is crap then no amount of work barring replacing the cell will give you a good APO or semi APO.
I have for many years bought scopes of all types and denominations but in reality the Takahashi Refractors have always been a world above the rest.
Take what you want from these comments as I'm sure you will.

My discussion is done.

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

Thats strange Nettie , I am out now looking at saturn thru my Istar 127mm f/8 achro and the only thing I see is a bit of sky glow with the moon being close by , zero CA on saturn .
I do see a bit on jupiter and the moons limb with the Istar but it's very well controlled but tonight saturn is totally colour free , even at 200x using my 5mm Vixen LV , really nice in the WO bino viewers , ( see my thread in 'observational and visual' I just posted )
My now sold NG127mm APO was totally colour free on all objects up to 350x or so , so it must have been a good one , except the focuser was rubbish , hence it got the FT3035 it deserved .
Heading back outside now, its such a lovely night up here tonight .
Brian.

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

TBO, I've not tried it out yet.
I'll give it a whirl tonight on Saturn, as I get a fair amount of blue on it.
I attach the finder guider to the handle via a dove tail attachment.
Definitely a semi-apo.

[casstony]

I think Nettie is commenting from an imaging perspective Brian, where the Blue shows up more readily.

I get negligible CA on the Moon's limb visually - was looking at the moon between clouds before and could see the main craterlets in Plato at 100x - haven't had good conditions to properly try out the lens.